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Thread: [July 22nd, 2015] Harder Campaigns & Colors Beyond Red

  1. #41
    World Mender Plundarr's Avatar
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    I would personally like a harder campaign with more regen and fewer (preferably no) frighten mount nodes. I love regen.
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  2. #42
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    What would be nice is instead of having Endurance as a camp mod, have different sets of prefixes be mods.

    So for instance, Frighten Mount, Regen, and Intimidate might be grouped into a single camp mod, and that would let those prefixes spawn on the camp nodes. That would let smaller/weaker guilds run that camp without those prefixes, and larger/stronger guilds run it with those prefixes for some kind of bonus.

  3. #43
    DotD Council Member LanderZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyreAB View Post
    What would be nice is instead of having Endurance as a camp mod, have different sets of prefixes be mods.

    So for instance, Frighten Mount, Regen, and Intimidate might be grouped into a single camp mod, and that would let those prefixes spawn on the camp nodes. That would let smaller/weaker guilds run that camp without those prefixes, and larger/stronger guilds run it with those prefixes for some kind of bonus.
    Once upon a time, it was claimed that anyone outside of the top 5-10% guilds on a server would never be able to finish Campaigns with Regen [especially on Hard].

    Now, even free guilds seem to be able to do Regen Normal nodes of BoB with little hassle.

    Time and growth helps equalize these things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LanderZ View Post
    Now, even free guilds seem to be able to do Regen Normal nodes of BoB with little hassle.

    Time and growth helps equalize these things.
    Many posts on this forum proves, people want everything NOW.
    I am a free player leading 15 members guild. Right now we are doing normal BoB boss node and i must announce limit for it, or it would be killed almost instantly
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  5. #45
    Sargaash the Mighty equal Ahlyis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanderZ View Post
    Once upon a time, it was claimed that anyone outside of the top 5-10% guilds on a server would never be able to finish Campaigns with Regen [especially on Hard].
    And once upon a time regen behaved vastly differently than it does now.

    Currently, once regen activates, it restores 1% of the max health every 10 minutes. So, when the regen hits, you spend the next 2 minutes cleaning that up and the following 8 doing additional damage. But that's not how it was originally. Under the original release of BoB, once regen activated, it restored 1% of the max health every 2 minutes! Once regen kicked in, you spent all the time simply trying to keep up with it, and often failing.

    That might not be such a big deal for BoB now, with the added power creep since the original release. But at the time, the complaints about nobody except the very top guilds being able to handle regen were perfectly valid. So much so that the Devs relented (rather quickly) and changed regen to be the far less punishing version it is now.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlyis View Post
    And once upon a time regen behaved vastly differently than it does now.

    Currently, once regen activates, it restores 1% of the max health every 10 minutes. So, when the regen hits, you spend the next 2 minutes cleaning that up and the following 8 doing additional damage. But that's not how it was originally. Under the original release of BoB, once regen activated, it restored 1% of the max health every 2 minutes! Once regen kicked in, you spent all the time simply trying to keep up with it, and often failing.

    That might not be such a big deal for BoB now, with the added power creep since the original release. But at the time, the complaints about nobody except the very top guilds being able to handle regen were perfectly valid. So much so that the Devs relented (rather quickly) and changed regen to be the far less punishing version it is now.
    Well, how regen works was changed few patches after the release of BoB. Nodes also worked differently (they had 6 hours timer, 3 weeks later, it was raised to 18hrs).
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  7. #47
    DotD Council Member LanderZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlyis View Post
    And once upon a time regen behaved vastly differently than it does now.

    Currently, once regen activates, it restores 1% of the max health every 10 minutes. So, when the regen hits, you spend the next 2 minutes cleaning that up and the following 8 doing additional damage. But that's not how it was originally. Under the original release of BoB, once regen activated, it restored 1% of the max health every 2 minutes! Once regen kicked in, you spent all the time simply trying to keep up with it, and often failing.

    That might not be such a big deal for BoB now, with the added power creep since the original release. But at the time, the complaints about nobody except the very top guilds being able to handle regen were perfectly valid. So much so that the Devs relented (rather quickly) and changed regen to be the far less punishing version it is now.
    2 minutes? I don't recall that; I do recall it being a 2% max health regen every 10 minutes [and the bug that said if the node failed regen would still be present upon re-entry], however.

    And as veny said, regen was patched a [relatively] short time later. People complained for months after about how impossible Regen was, to the point where it would pop up in Campaigning tutourials and such.

    I would tend to agree, veny. Time changes these things, and many people said as much, much to the chagrin of players who didn't want to agree.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanderZ View Post
    People complained for months after about how impossible Regen was, to the point where it would pop up in Campaigning tutourials and such.

    I would tend to agree, veny. Time changes these things, and many people said as much, much to the chagrin of players who didn't want to agree.
    Yes, I don't think anyone anticipated how power creep would become power sprint. When BoB was released, my legion bonus was 322k, my mount bonus was ~22% and Sons of Siculus was amazing gear. Now, those would be laughable numbers and the gear is trash.

    Power creep gives, but it also takes away. While the absurd explosion in power makes early campaigns easier, it also means that the rewards are largely meaningless. Sure, there are occasional exceptions (Logann), but pointing out that a lot more guilds can handle early campaigns these days is like pointing out that Tyranthius raids don't routinely fail any more, so new players can get in on that sweet Avenger mount action.

    I still think Regen is flawed and needs some tweaks:

    * Regenerating nodes should stop regenerating at 50%, like (AFAIK) every other regenerating raid in the game. It shouldn't be possible for a careless member to trip regeneration, log out and screw over the rest of the guild. (And, if 5PG has some godforsaken reason why they think that's a good thing, then we need to be able to track who did that.)

    * Regeneration should be a flat amount, not based on total health. The scaling on regeneration is way off: A 60b node with any other prefix is 3x as difficult as a 20b node with that prefix. A 60b Regen node is 9x as difficult as a 20b Regen node, because it's regenerating 3x as much for 3x as long. A Hard run where you get Regen on the big nodes is probably about an entire difficulty level higher than a Hard run without Regen.

  9. #49
    World Mender Plundarr's Avatar
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    Wait... regen stops at 50% on raids? Since when? Tyr does not stop at 50%, but it is rather tiny now.

    Which raids stop at 50%? Sorry, I don't know this.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanderZ View Post
    2 minutes? I don't recall that; I do recall it being a 2% max health regen every 10 minutes [and the bug that said if the node failed regen would still be present upon re-entry], however.
    Your memory is faulty. I'm certain it was every 2 minutes at original release. Later changed to the 1% every 10 minutes that we have now. It is possible I've misremembered and it was actually 2% every 2 minutes, but I don't think so. Pretty sure it was 1% every 2 minutes. I specifically remember it being a factor of 5 when they changed it, which means it was 1% every 2 minutes.

    It definitely wasn't 2% every 10 minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by LanderZ View Post
    And as veny said, regen was patched a [relatively] short time later. People complained for months after about how impossible Regen was, to the point where it would pop up in Campaigning tutourials and such.
    While I am certain that some people continued to complain (after all, there is ALWAYS someone complaining, no matter what the Devs do), the great majority of us were thankful for the change and stopped complaining about regen nodes after. In fact, I went from complaining about regen to actually preferring regen over Chilling.
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  11. #51
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    Dont forget there is no achievement for hard campaigns and no valid reason to do hard campaign actually.
    Loot from hard one is not must-have level, and token per honor is worse than in normal campaigns.
    Really, its a matter of time before anyone could do camp. Trust me, when BoB appeared, i was like "WTF" ... we were farming DD set like madmen. Then SoWW came, then Frozen set came, and since we have Purple lioness set (this should be in guild shop !!!) we have enough honor to do BoB/MaM with challenge.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plundarr View Post
    Wait... regen stops at 50% on raids? Since when? Tyr does not stop at 50%, but it is rather tiny now.

    Which raids stop at 50%? Sorry, I don't know this.
    Really? I had been under the impression that regenerating raids didn't regenerate past the point where the regeneration starts; I thought that had been the fix put in for Tyr. Could be I'm wrong, since as you say, the only regenerating raids are pretty trivial ones at this point.

  13. #53
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    The fix for Tyr was to stop it from regenerating above 100% health, which it used to do and which caused problems under certain conditions. But it was never to stop it from regenerating beyond any lower level afaik.

    Quote Originally Posted by veny View Post
    Dont forget there is no achievement for hard campaigns and no valid reason to do hard campaign actually.
    Loot from hard one is not must-have level, and token per honor is worse than in normal campaigns.
    If you want to craft the Imryx essence, you will have to do MaM on Hard difficulty. You do not get the gems you need from Normal. Yes, the Imryx essence can drop from Normal, but at a very low probability. Crafting it is a guarantee and can only be done through Hard.
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  14. #54
    DotD Council Member LanderZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesuji View Post
    Really? I had been under the impression that regenerating raids didn't regenerate past the point where the regeneration starts; I thought that had been the fix put in for Tyr. Could be I'm wrong, since as you say, the only regenerating raids are pretty trivial ones at this point.
    BoB used to have broken Regen where if you triggered it [under half health] and the node failed, when you restarted it it would restart with Regen, right from the getgo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlyis View Post
    If you want to craft the Imryx essence, you will have to do MaM on Hard difficulty. You do not get the gems you need from Normal. Yes, the Imryx essence can drop from Normal, but at a very low probability. Crafting it is a guarantee and can only be done through Hard.
    There are many essences i dont/cant have - Imryx is one of them.
    Personally, i dont need it, tons of them are in chat. Plus, you dont have to finish hard MaM to get the essence, you can farm small nodes only (time consuming, but ideal for small guilds).
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by veny View Post
    There are many essences i dont/cant have - Imryx is one of them.
    Personally, i dont need it, tons of them are in chat. Plus, you dont have to finish hard MaM to get the essence, you can farm small nodes only (time consuming, but ideal for small guilds).
    Your previous post said there was no reason to even do Hard.

    How do you plan to just farm the small start nodes for Imryx craft ingredients if you are not doing it on Hard?
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlyis View Post
    Your previous post said there was no reason to even do Hard.

    How do you plan to just farm the small start nodes for Imryx craft ingredients if you are not doing it on Hard?
    OK then ... there is no reason to finish hard campaign. And those, who finish normal MaM, manage to kill some small nodes on hard.
    And still, you can get essence from normal boss node.
    And even if you didnt have the essence ... there are tons of Imryxes on chat and they are not dying very fast ...
    There is nothing must-have in hard camps, you couldnt live without. If you feel it differently, you shold move in a better guild.
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    Quote Originally Posted by veny View Post
    Dont forget there is no achievement for hard campaigns and no valid reason to do hard campaign actually.
    Loot from hard one is not must-have level, and token per honor is worse than in normal campaigns.
    There are several valid reasons to do hard camps.

    All the camps have drops that are available only on Hard. (Granted, BoB, MaM, and GD Hard drops are largely also available through Hard GD Bags, which are now also available from Horth raid). Hard FW is the only way to get PBI gear (since GK is available through GK chests, which drop from Jorm as well), and the only way to reliably get the drops from Elvigar (which include the Aquatic Haste neck).

    Hard camps also have the advantage of allowing more people to hit higher tiers on smaller nodes. While this may seem counter intuitive, for larger/stronger guilds, this means more tokens per member because they're all hitting higher tiers on more nodes. And tokens/honor is not worse than normal camps. A Hard node with the same prefixes as a Normal node gives the same tokens per honor, since the tiers are exactly the same. The only difference is Hard nodes usually have different drops than Normal nodes for non craftable/tokens, but those seem to be a 1 for 1 replacement.

    Finally, Hard nodes also provide a challenge for larger/stronger guilds. This has two benefits. First it helps to promote cooperation within the guild, as the members have to coordinate between themselves to finish it. Second, it provides bragging rights. Guilds advertise in WC all the time about doing constant camps. Being able to say your guild is strong enough to do all Hard camps is a much stronger advertisement than a guild that does all Normal camps. Especially since the tiers for Normal and Hard camps are the same, and Hard gives better gear drops.

  19. #59
    Sargaash the Mighty equal Ahlyis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veny View Post
    OK then ... there is no reason to finish hard campaign. And those, who finish normal MaM, manage to kill some small nodes on hard.
    There's more reason to finish it than not!

    1) The same drops you get from the start nodes you also get from the end nodes.
    2) The Boss has unique drops you don't get elsewhere in the campaign.
    3) You cannot start another Campaign until this one is finished. You can wait for it to expire from any point, but you can only have it end before the timer expires by actually completing it. So if you want to do another campaign right away, better actually finish the current one.

    Quote Originally Posted by veny View Post
    And still, you can get essence from normal boss node.
    Which I mentioned. But as I also pointed out, getting the essence to drop is a VERY small chance. You are highly likely to get enough gems to craft Imryx through doing hard before you get him to drop.

    Quote Originally Posted by veny View Post
    And even if you didnt have the essence ... there are tons of Imryxes on chat and they are not dying very fast ...
    Which doesn't help my Faustus.

    Quote Originally Posted by veny View Post
    There is nothing must-have in hard camps, you couldnt live without. If you feel it differently, you shold move in a better guild.
    There is nothin must-have in the entire game if you want to get right down to it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyreAB View Post
    There are several valid reasons to do hard camps.

    All the camps have drops that are available only on Hard. (Granted, BoB, MaM, and GD Hard drops are largely also available through Hard GD Bags, which are now also available from Horth raid). Hard FW is the only way to get PBI gear (since GK is available through GK chests, which drop from Jorm as well), and the only way to reliably get the drops from Elvigar (which include the Aquatic Haste neck).

    Hard camps also have the advantage of allowing more people to hit higher tiers on smaller nodes. While this may seem counter intuitive, for larger/stronger guilds, this means more tokens per member because they're all hitting higher tiers on more nodes. And tokens/honor is not worse than normal camps. A Hard node with the same prefixes as a Normal node gives the same tokens per honor, since the tiers are exactly the same. The only difference is Hard nodes usually have different drops than Normal nodes for non craftable/tokens, but those seem to be a 1 for 1 replacement.

    Finally, Hard nodes also provide a challenge for larger/stronger guilds. This has two benefits. First it helps to promote cooperation within the guild, as the members have to coordinate between themselves to finish it. Second, it provides bragging rights. Guilds advertise in WC all the time about doing constant camps. Being able to say your guild is strong enough to do all Hard camps is a much stronger advertisement than a guild that does all Normal camps. Especially since the tiers for Normal and Hard camps are the same, and Hard gives better gear drops.

    I am explaining that doing hard campaigns is not nessesary for weak guilds, and hard campaigns gives nothing you would be lost without. Your response is "Hard campaigns are useful for stronger guilds" ...
    I am not sure if you are supporting or opposing my post

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlyis View Post
    There's more reason to finish it than not!

    1) The same drops you get from the start nodes you also get from the end nodes.
    2) The Boss has unique drops you don't get elsewhere in the campaign.
    3) You cannot start another Campaign until this one is finished. You can wait for it to expire from any point, but you can only have it end before the timer expires by actually completing it. So if you want to do another campaign right away, better actually finish the current one.


    Which I mentioned. But as I also pointed out, getting the essence to drop is a VERY small chance. You are highly likely to get enough gems to craft Imryx through doing hard before you get him to drop.


    Which doesn't help my Faustus.


    There is nothin must-have in the entire game if you want to get right down to it!

    1) If you want to end earlier, you can summon camp with speed challenge
    2) Imryx drop chance is low. On the other side, his crafting cost is extremely high for weak guilds that do 3-5 nodes per campaign
    3) How many newbies have Faustus ? Even i dont have him and i am playing for 3 years which is related to
    4) Must have items are premiums. You can play without them, but you will always suck. No premium in campaign anyway ... and Logann drops from BoB normal. Yeah, you can get premiums from camps. Achievements -> AP -> PC -> premiums. And for APs, you dont have to summon hard camps.
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