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Thread: [July 22nd, 2015] Harder Campaigns & Colors Beyond Red

  1. #21
    Spell Slinger
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    Quote Originally Posted by miztickow View Post
    PvP loss achievements should not be in the game. We shouldn't encourage failure.
    In PvP (joust especially) achieving the failure is as hard as achieving the victory
    BTW. there is an achievement for buying expeditions - isnt that a failure too ?
    Na ArmorGames hledáme členy pro naší gildu CZ+SK !

  2. #22
    Sister of Radiance Maelyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesuji View Post
    This really isn't the best advice for low-level guilds.
    That's what I get for writing without drafting first. I had meant to mention that Frozen is probably better nowadays, once geared up with FFishing/EoKark (especially due to the lack of regen!), but BoB with it's low health may help inspire the confidence (and collect the tokens) by making it further in, especially with collection nodes: there seems to be only the one collection node in Frozen...

    Thanks for making sure it was brought up. ^.^

  3. #23
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    Speaking about newbies and campaigns ... how about adding Purple lioness set in AP bazaar/guild shop ?
    Not owning this set is very limiting for starting players who want to participate in advanced guild features.
    Na ArmorGames hledáme členy pro naší gildu CZ+SK !

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by veny View Post
    In PvP (joust especially) achieving the failure is as hard as achieving the victory
    BTW. there is an achievement for buying expeditions - isnt that a failure too ?
    By the time I did the Joust cheevos, it was actually much harder for me to lose than to win. Took me quite a while till I found 2 people I could consistently lose to and a third one with a >50% loss rate (if he had good gear on).
    But I generally consider loss cheevos against the idea of PvP. At least when it requires to purposefully lose on a big scale. I'm fine with some "low" loss cheevos (like in Colosseum) as a consolation prize, but not such a madness like in Duel/Joust (and Skirmish, but that was before my time and has no relevance anymore).

    And yes, buying expeditions might also be considered purposefully losing. But all joking aside, I generally don't like such "wallet achievements" like "buy expeditions" or "spend PC". But they go to red already anyway, so it won't get worse with them for now.

  5. #25
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    Well, my PC spent achievement is the purple one so far and still, i havent buy a single PC.
    Free players can also profit from expedition achievement (when they try hardly for a premium f.e.).
    I think those achievements are fair enough ... they are not providing insane amount of APs and you dont have to buy PCs to get them.
    Na ArmorGames hledáme členy pro naší gildu CZ+SK !

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by veny View Post
    Well, my PC spent achievement is the purple one so far and still, i havent buy a single PC.
    Free players can also profit from expedition achievement (when they try hardly for a premium f.e.).
    I think those achievements are fair enough ... they are not providing insane amount of APs and you dont have to buy PCs to get them.
    Oh, mine are also both purple as a completely free player, and the PC spent cheevo will definitely reach orange, but red cheevo might be out of reach. Not that it matters, I'm just generally not a fan of achievements requiring to spend premium currency, especially requiring to spend it on something specific. But I can easily ignore them, especially as there are also other achievements that I can't possibly get.

  7. #27
    Golden Garden Monk
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    I like the PC based cheevos.. they are basicly free AP.

    Would you rather see we didnt have them?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jableski View Post
    I like the PC based cheevos.. they are basicly free AP.

    Would you rather see we didnt have them?
    I wouldn't want to remove them, but I would want to not have them had in the first place. But that's a principle discussion, and we shouldn't have it here in this thread.

  9. #29
    Silver Arrow
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    If anyone is telling me that we need a more difficult campaign than frozen war on hard with all challenges I'm pretty sure he/she hasn't done this campaign at all nor consistently.

    Frighten Mount is the worst challenge I ever faced and if you want all the stuff from FW you have to complete it more than 100 times on hard(if you're lucky and grind a couple thousand jormungans aswell).

    This grind is mindblowing and unnecessary compared to its reward. Sure it is a nice magic(fully buffed) but at this rate only a few players will ever benefit. Very few got the magic after 6 months of doing FW..

    A new campaign would be nice but only if the loot is worth the effort. At the moment there is only one campaign which will never die out; MaM where you get Volatiles, the ressource nobody wants to miss out on.

  10. #30
    Silver Arrow illegalmonkey's Avatar
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    What I got out of this dev diary is, "We have GREAT ideas for changes to the game fellow Dragonmasters!..... But we don't intend to implement them! Have a good day!"
    PapaBear - Luminary in MIGHT and MAGIC

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by illegalmonkey View Post
    What I got out of this dev diary is, "We have GREAT ideas for changes to the game fellow Dragonmasters!..... But we don't intend to implement them! Have a good day!"
    Who knows, maybe they want campaigns to be really difficult. Now it would make 90% of players angry.
    I am sure Logann is speaking about this because this idea is still actual and not abandoned.
    Na ArmorGames hledáme členy pro naší gildu CZ+SK !

  12. #32
    Dawn of the Dragons Developer Mouse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by illegalmonkey View Post
    What I got out of this dev diary is, "We have GREAT ideas for changes to the game fellow Dragonmasters!..... But we don't intend to implement them! Have a good day!"
    Certainly not the intended message. I was basically reviewing the concern from the community about potentially adding more difficulties, and answering honestly that the dev team doesn't feel that's really necessary right now. The AP to red for things that lack is already scheduled, but we don't feel it needs to go as far as Bronze, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by veny
    In PvP (joust especially) achieving the failure is as hard as achieving the victory
    The point about PvP losses NOT being extended was solid feedback, something we'll review for sure. I personally agree that encouraging a player to lose is counter intuitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by veny
    Who knows, maybe they want campaigns to be really difficult. Now it would make 90% of players angry.
    Each new Campaign should certainly feel more challenging than the last, but the rewards should match the effort and challenge. If it doesn't feel that way right now, then it's a design failure and we need to re-examine Campaigns a bit.

  13. #33
    World Mender Belgarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    Each new Campaign should certainly feel more challenging than the last, but the rewards should match the effort and challenge. If it doesn't feel that way right now, then it's a design failure and we need to re-examine Campaigns a bit.

    to be brutally honest, you could apply this to a few parts of the game, especially things like legendaries, mostly the last few added, they are just a chore to get (im looking at you Mathala's Sabatons and the Magmaesa Shield) and will never be equipped by 99% of the playerbase, im not saying that they should be the "best" things going, but they should at least be usable, even if its only against a certain race/raid type etc....

    as for campaigns, the rewards have never really been worth the challenge (imho) sometimes it feels like im only hitting camps for the Pots from MaM, or maybe to try and get the magics from FW (which will take forever (i seriously think i may hit IDS first)

  14. #34
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    How about extending all AP to go to red and orange? A number of AP's like Magics, cap out earlier. Uniformity would be nice

    Campaign Rankings - Right now your guild's campaign ranking appears to be number of nodes conquered. So if your guild likes to do hard/nerfed/fatigued campaigns it's very low in the rankings (despite the fact that many guilds can't or won't do them regularly) whereas you can just do speed BoB/MaM/3rd campaign while BoB coolsdown and achieve a high ranking.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by miztickow View Post
    PvP loss achievements should not be in the game. We shouldn't encourage failure.
    +1

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    The point about PvP losses NOT being extended was solid feedback, something we'll review for sure. I personally agree that encouraging a player to lose is counter intuitive.
    The thing that always struck me as odd is that we actually need more losses than wins for the same achievement.
    In Duel/Joust it's always 2 or 2.5 times as many losses as wins for the same colour achievement with the same amount AP. Only that losses stop at purple while wins go to orange.
    In Colosseum and Invasion we even need 5 or 10 times as many losses as wins for the same coloured achievement, although there are also 2 or 2.5 times as many AP for the losses. Fortunately the losses cheevos stop at green there, which doesn't require a lot of purposefully losing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    but the rewards should match the effort and challenge. If it doesn't feel that way right now, then it's a design failure and we need to re-examine Campaigns a bit.
    Well, realistically it's impossible to design this "right" for everyone or even for half the active players.

    Some thoughts about "difficulty" and "effort" of campaigns:

    I think it's practically impossible to even have a consistent and meaningful notion of "effort". What one guild considers serious effort will be unchallenging for another guild and for yet another guild it will even be impossible for at least a year.
    The range of power among active players/guilds is just way too wide. On the one end there are those few guilds full of strong power-levelers who can easily run any two Hard campaigns a day if they want to, and on the other end there are the weak and/or casual guild who would have to postpone any guild raids to be able to beat any normal camp.
    It's hard to adress that completely in a good way, but I think new challenges (or rather anti-challenges) which make campaigns easier (but at a cost of loot) could work well to make campaigns appealing to a wider range of guilds. For example:
    • All nodes have only half health but loot amounts are also halved.
    • No node prefixes but loot amounts are halved.
    • All timers (nodes and camp) are doubled but loot amounts are halved.

    That way a campaign can be designed challenging for a range of guilds without making the campaign irrelevant (and the loot completely unobtainable) for weaker guilds.


    Some thoughts about loot of campaigns:

    Imho there are three general issues with campaign loot that could be improved (in new campaigns but also in revamps of existing campaigns):
    1. Currently a lot of loot is only available from the bosses and rare spawns, and there's only one boss per campaign, and usually less than 1 rare spawn per campaign on average, and there's not even a high chance for the stuff to drop. That's extremely discouraging, to the point where guilds don't even bother to run certain campaigns just for a small chance to get one of the few missing pieces in the end. In some campaigns you already adressed the rare spawn problem (Hard FW has a guaranteed Elvigar, and GoC can be resummoned till the starting node is a rare spawn), but there are more ways to adress that and make campaigns more rewarding in that regard. A few ideas:
      • Make drops from bosses/rare spawns craftable from the drops of the regular nodes. Maybe a whole regular gear set into one piece of boss gear. Or piece by piece, i.e., a number of regular helms into a boss helm etc. Or just an assortment of regular drops craftable into a boss bad or rare spawn bag. Something along those lines. That way the campaign as a whole feels more rewarding because there is smoother progress, and also missing the boss node or rare spawn doesn't make the whole campaign for naught.
      • A campaign could also have more than one boss, and the guild has the ability to choose whether to end after one boss or to attck other bosses. (That's something I actually expected when I first saw the FW map, but unfortunately it didn't work that way.)
      • There could be a challenge (or an event) that increases the chance for rare spawns or has guaranteed rare spawns (or even boss nodes instead of regular nodes).
      • Maybe there could an event with a special campaign where all nodes are random boss nodes or rare spawns of all the campaigns.
    2. Currently the game gives no information whatsoever about the what loot can be obtained from where. I'm sure lots of players have hardly any clue about what loot can come from what nodes or what extra loot can come from Nerfed/Fatigued challenge. The community does a decent job figuring this out, but the enthusiasm for this dies down quickly after a new camp is released, often leaving some questions unanswered, especially when it comes to the very rare and unique drops. (For example whether some rare spawn drop can come only from one difficulty, or what exactly can be in the extra end loot from Nerfed/Fatigued.)
      [We have seen the effect nicely in the one and only campaign based guild event. After a few days when it became clear that only existing token drops had their amount increased (instead of additional token drops as we believed), many players didn't really know which campaigns would be affected because they simply didn't know which campaigns and challenges even have tokens in the end loot.]
      Ideally every node has a Loot button (similar to raids) that shows the possible drops. And similarly there'd be a Loot button on the campaign map showing the possible end loot drops (either dynamic depending on the currently active challenges, or just all loot with an indication which ones require certain challenges).
    3. Many campaigns don't have lasting appeal. After getting the main drops (and even those are just fodder for the older campaigns) the appeal of a campaign goes down drastically, and all that's left is grinding for ultra-rare drops (which is not very appealing for many players) and for AP.
      There are guild tokens (which most players still need) which can keep the interest up, but that's unequal between the campaigns, and guilds might only run some hard BoBs for them. And MaM has those chests with volatile potions and guild tokens, that keeps MaM in demand (even though its boss still has the old loot tiers). The other camps don't really have anything interesting like that to keep the demand up. Well, FW has those boss crafties, but they aren't paricularly enticing for many players. It's just something they'll get at some point in the future (and who knows if it's still relevant by then), but nothing they can use right now.
      Oh, and there's also guild rep and guild xp but they don't really count as an incentive at all. Aside from the fact that you only need a limited amount of those to reach max guild level and max guild rank, they are much easier to gain with guild raids. Same goes for stat points, the payout from campaigns is so low compared to some guild raids that they don't serve as a campaign incentive.
      Not sure what can be done to keep certain campaigns in demand. But maybe that shouldn't even be a goal.


    Well, that's my 2 cents regarding campaign design improvements.

    To set this in more context, here are some notes about my own personal camp experience so far. Feel free to ignore it.

  17. #37
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    I was always thinking about one node (like a castle or something with 48h timer) surrounded/unlocked by 6-10 collection nodes (only).
    This would be like the preparation for the siege ... great for weaker guilds and those, who have tons of collectibles for nodes

    About the loot ... its sad tokens have the only purpose - buying stuff against campaigns ... kinda vicious circle.
    There are many empty spots in guild shop - give there Purple lioness set or some freemiums or stuff useful in "normal game".
    Na ArmorGames hledáme členy pro naší gildu CZ+SK !

  18. #38
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    Didnt feel like writing nowadays, until the topic that would always stir me came on ...

    +1 to Artydents words. Because ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    Each new Campaign should certainly feel more challenging than the last, but ... If it doesn't feel that way right now, then it's a design failure and we need to re-examine Campaigns a bit.
    The underlined words are not that possible, because, pardon the pun, but where/when do you draw the line?

    Really, read Artydent's words again. It basically is correct to say that all Campaigns are design failures to certain segments of the community, for ... reasons some of us had spammed for years.

    Maelyn seemed to get the point, as always -

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelyn View Post
    I will agree that it is getting to be about time for a new campaign, though personally I'd prefer that it wouldn't be "harder" than the ones that currently exist, but comparable instead...
    Tesuji lay out a nice blueprint for a guild to try to tackle the Warcraft-3-inspired Frozen War. But even then, note that a guild still isnt even guaranteed to beat it. Again, some will not be happy that i point this out, but ... so many folks had quit over campaigns ever since it was launched years ago. It IS the feature that excluded people who just wanna play with a smaller circle of friends and family, or who just plain refused to change/merge guilds for whatever reasons. The numbers have been down, and they do not lie.

    For the record, I dont hate campaigns so much nowadays, years later. But I still intensely dislike it.
    Currently trying to share awareness on this - I realized that I dont really need anymore Premium Generals, esp with the Lockbox Premium nonsense~! And -1 to the AP Zone, AND Shop~! And the World Server~! And the 2.5T WR~!
    - Started around Xmas Eve '2010. Lena told me so. And, all the best to her, and Cleo. Never expect myself to outstay them here ...

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahlyis View Post
    I know you meant this specifically for campaigns, as seen by the rest of your post, but it is a comment that often comes up for all aspects of the game. Often people complain that all/most new content is aimed at higher level players with nothing new for the low level players.

    To that I say... Good!

    That's the way it "should" be. Low level players should only be low level because they are relatively new to the game. In which case, they should still be working through the existing, beginner aimed content.
    If beginner aimed content was only accessible by beginners, I'd agree with you. However, the way the game is structured, "beginner content" really is only questing, which is only a small part of the game. The rest of the "beginner content" isn't really accessible by beginners because the older players are still hitting "beginner" raids, and that makes it nearly impossible for beginners to hit them. Also, there is no restriction on beginners hitting "higher level content" raids, which is a contributing factor for bigger raids failing (like Bad Blood for instance).

    So, adding more "high level content" only makes it harder for beginners, since the only readily available content they have access to besides questing is that same high level stuff. That's one reason new people complain and get laughed at in WC for needing gold, the raids they should be hitting aren't readily available to them, so they're hitting raids that do tons of damage and burn through their gold faster than they earn it.

    Campaigns are just as bad. Newer players can't readily tackle the later camps, and if they join the older/bigger guilds, they're likely to be seeing mostly H camps and the later camps. Granted, those will get them better gear, but that's assuming the nodes are alive long enough for them to grind up to even the low tiers.

  20. #40
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    A little comparsion:
    When i started 2,5 years ago (now level 2200), the most powerful raid was Caracalla (FS= 400M). My strongest legion was Green Army (40k when i finised Dahrizon on 800th level or so ... with Callisa set). There were no camps. or adventures.
    My brother started 8 months ago. After those 8 months (free player, small kid), he has level 1300+, his legion power is 400k (its hard to get more without prems) and he doesnt have a problem with common WRs/ERs or campaigns.
    DEVs maybe dont add content for newbies, but power curve of free gear raises very fast, so now newbies will get access to all content in few weeks.

    They cant acces all camps ? Its not the problem of a player, but his guild.
    Anyway, campaigns are not for newbies so you cant expect they will farm them as experienced veterans ...
    Na ArmorGames hledáme členy pro naší gildu CZ+SK !

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