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Thread: [July 22nd, 2015] Harder Campaigns & Colors Beyond Red

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    Community Manager Logann's Avatar
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    [July 22nd, 2015] Harder Campaigns & Colors Beyond Red

    Greetings and welcome to another edition of Developer’s Digest. If you’re just joining us for the first time, this is an ongoing Wednesday only post that provides insight and answers from the Dawn Development team (mostly from me, Mouse) into community concerns and questions.

    Harder Campaigns & Colors Beyond Red
    Greetings, adventurers!

    Today we’ll be tackling two questions from the community that Logann has collected from you, the players! As time permits we’ll try to take the time to answer multiple questions in a Developer Digest periodically. As luck would have it, time does permit this week!

    Campaigns: Legendary or Nightmare difficulty?
    In the initial concepting we did for Campaigns, we discussed the possibility of adding a third difficulty. The idea behind this difficulty is that it’d be extremely hard but would have a lot of loot to make up for that. We decided to roll Campaigns out with just two modes, Normal and Hard, to see what community reaction would be and if a third difficulty really felt necessary.

    At this stage we still don’t feel Campaigns warrant more than just Normal and Hard, and adding a third difficulty would add a considerable amount of development time to an already resource intensive Campaign system.

    It’s not out of the question, but it’s currently nowhere on our radar.

    Bronze, Silver and Gold outside of consumables?
    With the extension of our Perception tiers we added new colors for the various consumables you can get while questing: Bronze, Silver and Gold, these new colors are better versions of the previously top tier “Red” color. In particular, players are curious if we’ll add these new colors to AP.

    Right now we do not feel the need to extend other areas of the game from Red to Bronze, etc, but we’re mindful of it and are glad it’s an option should we need to do it at a later time. It’s entirely plausible that we’ll end up adding these colors to AP tiers, but I wouldn’t expect that anytime soon, and it might end up being something we just never feel is necessary to do.

    For the time being this will stay exclusive for Perception.


    Conclusion
    Be sure to check back again next week for another Developer Digest! Remember that two answer Developer Digests are not the new norm, but exceptions for when we have the time to answer more than one in a single post.

    Until next time, adventurers!

    --------

    Posted on the behalf of Mouse, by Logann.

    Please leave your feedback and questions here for possibly getting them answered by the team.
    ** NOTE: Not every question can or will be answered, but we will do our best to answer as many as possible. This will be a Wednesday digest of Questions and Answers.

    Logann
    Dragon Tamer

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    Spell Slinger Exeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logann View Post
    Bronze, Silver and Gold outside of consumables?
    With the extension of our Perception tiers we added new colors for the various consumables you can get while questing: Bronze, Silver and Gold, these new colors are better versions of the previously top tier “Red” color. In particular, players are curious if we’ll add these new colors to AP.

    Right now we do not feel the need to extend other areas of the game from Red to Bronze, etc, but we’re mindful of it and are glad it’s an option should we need to do it at a later time. It’s entirely plausible that we’ll end up adding these colors to AP tiers, but I wouldn’t expect that anytime soon, and it might end up being something we just never feel is necessary to do.

    For the time being this will stay exclusive for Perception.
    what about getting all AP to red at least and adding some like health, number of legions?
    Starting 10/10/2010
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    Golden Garden Monk cerealis's Avatar
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    Can't wait for the next camp release. Any news on that?

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    Sister of Radiance Achievements's Avatar
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    So your plan is to keep increasing difficulty to entertain existing high-level players.

    In my opinion this game still lacks a thing: an EASY campaign.

    Newer players with level 500 and below get told to join one of the existing, active guilds. Because a new guild without successful camps is pretty much impossible to raise up (as seen on Chaos Theory, who ate Frozen War camps for breakfast thanks to ChVoS)

    Without a bunch of lumis or an immortal the remaining lower-level guilds even struggle to finish Bastion of Blood or Monsters and Magma camps. You just need 2-3 strong players that always help kill the big nodes off. To slowly begin and raise difficulty and limits I often heard that some people would appreciate a campaign for beginners. Easier than Bastion of Blood.

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    Night Blade
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    I think raids don't really need Bronze+ AP anyway. As much as we like AP and the PC from it, I think 5k kills for red AP feels grindy enough. That said, adding red AP to the raids that only go to orange would be fine.


    As for campaigns, I think two difficulties are enough. Most guilds can probably not even do hard campaigns on a regular basis. And with the low drop rates of so many things many guilds still have years to grind the current campaigns to get everything, not to mention that there will likely be new campaigns thrown into the mix.

    Speaking of campaigns, I'd rather have some QoL improvements.
    • We still can't access node logs after a node is looted.
    • When entering the camp screen we often just see the fog for half a minute till the rest is loaded. And while it's possible to enter open nodes in that stage, we can't loot nodes before the images are loaded properly.
    • It would be really nice if there was a visual representation when a node has started regenerating. Like regen raids have.
    • What is the point of not allowing to join a new camp before the old one is looted? That's really annoying sometimes. And if there has to be some restriction for technical or other reasons, how about only requiring that an older iteration of the same camp has to be looted before joining a new one.
    • The 5x20 button doesn't speed up anything on campaigns. (Which is a shame, as campaigns are one of the few places where I would actually use it.) Why is that? Is this necessary for technical reasons or so?

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    Sargaash the Mighty equal Ahlyis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achievements View Post
    So your plan is to keep increasing difficulty to entertain existing high-level players.
    I know you meant this specifically for campaigns, as seen by the rest of your post, but it is a comment that often comes up for all aspects of the game. Often people complain that all/most new content is aimed at higher level players with nothing new for the low level players.

    To that I say... Good!

    That's the way it "should" be. Low level players should only be low level because they are relatively new to the game. In which case, they should still be working through the existing, beginner aimed content.

    If you have been playing the game for 2+ years and are still under level 1k, then that is 100% by your own choice. There's no reason even a 100% free player should need new entry level content in order to progress in the game, regardless of how old/new they are to the game. There is plenty of existing content for low level players already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Achievements View Post
    In my opinion this game still lacks a thing: an EASY campaign.

    Newer players with level 500 and below get told to join one of the existing, active guilds. Because a new guild without successful camps is pretty much impossible to raise up (as seen on Chaos Theory, who ate Frozen War camps for breakfast thanks to ChVoS)

    Without a bunch of lumis or an immortal the remaining lower-level guilds even struggle to finish Bastion of Blood or Monsters and Magma camps. You just need 2-3 strong players that always help kill the big nodes off. To slowly begin and raise difficulty and limits I often heard that some people would appreciate a campaign for beginners. Easier than Bastion of Blood.
    This is an old request. The response from the developers was Adventures.

    While I will agree with you or anyone else that Adventures are hardly an entry level replacement for Campaigns, that is what the Devs gave us.

    To be honest though, I don't think an easy Camp is really necessary. So what if a new guild, with all new members cannot tackle Campaigns right away. It shouldn't take them long to rectify that situation. There is enough powerful gear available now from a multitude of sources that even new, free players can get up to significant power levels fairly quickly. An active guild of low level players should be able to handle a Normal Bastion of Blood campaign with a little planning, preparation and effort.

    I'm not saying it would, or even should, be easy for a low level Guild to take out a Normal BoB. Campaigns aren't meant to be easy. They are meant to be a test for the whole Guild to work on in order to overcome and triumph.

    Obviously that is just my 2 cents worth.
    Azure Bonds on NAG has risen from the dead! We are now a level 10 guild with full guild shop access. Come join us!

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    Golden Garden Monk Su1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Achievements View Post
    So your plan is to keep increasing difficulty to entertain existing high-level players.

    In my opinion this game still lacks a thing: an EASY campaign.

    Newer players with level 500 and below get told to join one of the existing, active guilds. Because a new guild without successful camps is pretty much impossible to raise up (as seen on Chaos Theory, who ate Frozen War camps for breakfast thanks to ChVoS)

    Without a bunch of lumis or an immortal the remaining lower-level guilds even struggle to finish Bastion of Blood or Monsters and Magma camps. You just need 2-3 strong players that always help kill the big nodes off. To slowly begin and raise difficulty and limits I often heard that some people would appreciate a campaign for beginners. Easier than Bastion of Blood.
    I personally feel we would never need an easier campaign than Bastion of Blood. They added different things into the game that makes the camps a ton easier than when first released. Hell if you have 100 active members NOT luminary/immortal you should be okay to kill a couple of nodes in BoB/MaM/TGD.

    If they redid Adventures to make it something that you don't have to pay attention to it 24/7 to make sure you get a hit on the bosses before another person solos it or have a couple of people completely forget about it because it wasn't finished asap. Adventures WAS the solution for guilds that couldn't complete the campaigns.

    Now if 5PG thought that "Newer players" that were below level 500 should need to take part in campaigns and complete them with ease I would assume they would have added in an easier campaign a long time ago right after BoB was made but they decided lets make 5 harder ones instead. The only thing that is tough for the newer players/guilds is that they need coordination to complete these campaigns and active players. If you have 20 lvl 500 players it will be tough to complete a campaign unless someone is powerleveling.

    I guess my opinion is way biased so I might not have the best view but so much has been added since BoB was released that would greatly increase someones strength towards the camp its ridiculous.

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    Sargaash the Mighty equal miztickow's Avatar
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    I agree that we don't need harder campaigns right now, but I think we need a new campaign now.

    Also, this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Exeon View Post
    what about getting all AP to red at least and adding some like health, number of legions?

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    Forum Moderator Nethlion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exeon View Post
    what about getting all AP to red at least and adding some like health, number of legions?
    A million times this.

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    Sister of Radiance Mace's Avatar
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    First of all a great post, I love it and reading the responses. Which my response will sound similar to many in here.

    I love that the possibility of a harder campaign difficulty is present but new campaigns will always be more fun than harder ones. So imo the current model for campaigns is the way to go as you guys stated. (That said I agree with the others, we need a new one ;P)

    AP as well there are multiple options. It does not have to be a new tier. It could be as others have said simple raising everything to red. Or filling in the holes that the system has such as health, legions, familiars. Or raising some that are far too low such as gear and stats. AP is a fantastic system that works well which is why we want more from it. =)

    As well many people have brought up adventures. They need some serious love. They require more cooperation than anything else in this game. Brute force does not work on them, the typical DotD strategy for all things in DotD. However the rewards are to be honest just plain terrible. No reason they cannot be on par with campaign and just be different specific races focused in them just because they don't require power house players or lots of vols. They need a specific use if not good gear make it a better source of SP from honor, or tokens, or a great source of AP. There are tons of options most of which I assume have been thought of and gone over by staff. However we could really use it sooner rather than later. (Although the same could be said of many things like Perc 2.0)

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    Sister of Radiance
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exeon View Post
    what about getting all AP to red at least and adding some like health, number of legions?
    repeatedly quoting this because Lots has ship ap and we still dont.

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    Sargaash the Mighty equal miztickow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NomAG View Post
    repeatedly quoting this because Lots has ship ap and we still dont.
    For people that don't play LOTS, Ship = Legion.

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    Dawn of the Dragons Developer Mouse's Avatar
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    For Achievements that don't currently go up to red, we'll be extending those so they do (in a future patch). For things missing AP all together, we plan to look at those too, but that's further away than extending non-Red AP currently.

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    Spell Slinger
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    1) Higher camp. difficulty sounds great. From what i saw, for some guilds hard ones are not challenging anymore. But i agree significantly harder difficulty would not help with it.
    Some new campaign would be nice (plant one would make sence and it could motivate people to buy AP set). It would have more HPs so it would provide more challenges without the nessesity of new difficulty level.

    2) Achievements higher than red would be cool, but there is an ballance issue. Bronze achievement should give more than 2000AP (it would make sence) but me, and many top players would get thousands of APs for items/legendaries/generals achievements.
    MAYBE new AP tiers should give players the pitchfork tokens instead of APs. (Bronze - 5, Silver - 10, Gold - 15 f.e.).
    Implementing missing up-to-red tiers is nice :-)


    Quote Originally Posted by Achievements View Post
    So your plan is to keep increasing difficulty to entertain existing high-level players.

    In my opinion this game still lacks a thing: an EASY campaign.

    Newer players with level 500 and below get told to join one of the existing, active guilds. Because a new guild without successful camps is pretty much impossible to raise up (as seen on Chaos Theory, who ate Frozen War camps for breakfast thanks to ChVoS)

    Without a bunch of lumis or an immortal the remaining lower-level guilds even struggle to finish Bastion of Blood or Monsters and Magma camps. You just need 2-3 strong players that always help kill the big nodes off. To slowly begin and raise difficulty and limits I often heard that some people would appreciate a campaign for beginners. Easier than Bastion of Blood.

    We have adventures ... great feature, that is not very favorite, due to its bad loot. Revamping them would solve issues you mentioned.
    I dont think we need easier campaigns - BoB is easy enough with frozen set ... i am telling this as a leader of a guild with 20 members that succesfuly accomplished all campaigns.
    You cant expect to have the easy campaigns if they are meant to be difficult.
    Na ArmorGames hledáme členy pro naší gildu CZ+SK !

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    Night Blade
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    For Achievements that don't currently go up to red, we'll be extending those so they do (in a future patch).

    Btw, please do NOT add higher achievements for Duel/Joust losses. We don't need incentives to lose on purpose on a big scale. Whoever thought an achievement for 10k losses would be a good idea in the first place is eligible for a slap in the face from me. And that is even only purple (current max), so orange/red would probably be 25k/50k or more.

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    Sister of Radiance
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artydent View Post
    Btw, please do NOT add higher achievements for Duel/Joust losses. We don't need incentives to lose on purpose on a big scale. Whoever thought an achievement for 10k losses would be a good idea in the first place is eligible for a slap in the face from me. And that is even only purple (current max), so orange/red would probably be 25k/50k or more.
    ap is ap , you can purposely lose after reaching a class cap then you ll be safe, that aside it would be nice if the pvp lost ap could be counted from being defeated by others players; that would make a lot of more sense.

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    Sister of Radiance Maelyn's Avatar
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    It seems adventures always get brought up (perhaps rightly) when talking about campaigns being too difficult for some guilds.

    Adventures, unfortunately, are a failure when it comes to filling the role as a bridge between guilds not strong enough to camp and those able to do so. In almost every case, and by almost every measure, a guild is likely to do "better" by starting BoB or MaM on speedrun, killing as many nodes as they can (even if that's only 1), and letting in fail to start over. In my opinion, it would be better for Adventures to go the way of Skirmish and for an introductory mini-campaign to be made (or for existing campaigns to get an "easymode" challenge that reduces health, eliminates regen, and reduces loot - perhaps eliminating certain things from the loot tables (an "easymode" MaM, for instance, shouldn't reward Magma Troves / Molten Chests / whatever they're called).

    Adventures can, I'm sure, be fixed so that they're relevant and serve their intended audience. What I'm not sure about is if it warrants the dev resources to do so in view of other solutions and other priorities. Currently, they cost too much honor for too little reward, require PC expenditure to completely kit out an adventurer (spending PC on consumables is something less likely to occur with players at the level Adventures are intended for), and - while all the previous aren't that difficult to address - require far more coordination than basic campaigning. I can see costs, rewards, and kit being tweaked without much difficulty. I don't see an easy way to make adventures "casual-friendly."

    --

    I will agree that it is getting to be about time for a new campaign, though personally I'd prefer that it wouldn't be "harder" than the ones that currently exist, but comparable instead. An increase in difficulty would naturally apply going from Frozen (with strong, free, anti-aquatic gear) to a campaign that utilizes an under-represented race like Orc, Qwil, Plant, Giant Insect, or so on. (I'd include in that list Terror, too, but existing lore strongly implies that all Terrors are aquatic, and I don't think we need a second aquatic campaign at this point.) We have a great many racial typings with few (or no!) raids or node with that typing, making specialized gear and legions for them less-than-valuable. Campaigns, with 20 nodes, allow for making those sets relevant (and, consequentially, providing a reason to buy something vs those typings: how many skipped on the anti-Terror grabbag because there were no Terrors to use it on?) without having to add a lot of additional raid essences.

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    Spell Slinger
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    Easy solution to adventures:

    Give us freemium troops/generals against campaigns who will be obtained from adventurers after reaching 10th level.
    This would easily motivate players to do adventures with different adventurers (not only cleric/knight), and provide good reward that wont

    Example: After maxing Euelis, he will drop troop:
    Master Euelis

    Elf/Ranged/Agility
    250/320

    Proc: Bow of the adventurer: Chance to deal damage against campaigns (10% for 150 000 dmg per 1 honor). Extra damage for other Adventure comrades in legion (+15 000 dmg per 1 honor).


    Those freemiums also could be upgradable trough guild shop. They also could have their own anti-campaign legion with slots attached directly to them.
    Na ArmorGames hledáme členy pro naší gildu CZ+SK !

  19. #19
    Golden Garden Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelyn View Post
    Adventures, unfortunately, are a failure
    You could have stopped there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maelyn View Post
    In almost every case, and by almost every measure, a guild is likely to do "better" by starting BoB or MaM on speedrun, killing as many nodes as they can (even if that's only 1), and letting in fail to start over.
    This really isn't the best advice for low-level guilds.

    At this point, BoB/MaM exist solely for fodder and AP. If a guild wants to do campaigns, they should start with farming Paracoprion until everyone has a full set of Furious Fishing gear, hitting Karkata until the set is all runed up, and then summoning N FW, resetting as necessary until they have good prefixes (or, at least, non-bad ones) on the opening nodes. They then focus fire on a node at a time, and see how far they can get. They repeat as needed until everyone has full FEI. Beyond a decent anti-campaign set, that will also give them the best return on guild coins.

    If it's not possible for a guild, even with planning and preparation, to deal 18b damage to an aquatic node in 18 hours, then they need to either decide that staying together as a guild is more important than doing campaigns, or they need to disband/merge with another guild.

    There's no path that starts with 'unable to handle BoB today' and gets you to 'being able to handle campaigns that drop meaningful loot'. I think it's perfectly okay for a guild to choose that the community they have is more important than being able to do campaigns, but unfortunately, I think a guild that can't handle campaigns probably has to choose one or the other, because the game is not set up to get you to there from here.

    And, since I don't believe it's been answered yet, I'll add my voice to the chorus: When are we going to see a new campaign? Seems like it's been quite a while.

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    Sargaash the Mighty equal miztickow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artydent View Post
    Btw, please do NOT add higher achievements for Duel/Joust losses. We don't need incentives to lose on purpose on a big scale. Whoever thought an achievement for 10k losses would be a good idea in the first place is eligible for a slap in the face from me. And that is even only purple (current max), so orange/red would probably be 25k/50k or more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seiken View Post
    ap is ap , you can purposely lose after reaching a class cap then you ll be safe, that aside it would be nice if the pvp lost ap could be counted from being defeated by others players; that would make a lot of more sense.
    PvP loss achievements should not be in the game. We shouldn't encourage failure.

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