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Thread: Did Jormungan ruin the overall gameplay?

  1. #21
    Spell Slinger Exeon's Avatar
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    th eonly thing i dont like about jormungan is the ratio dmg of energy, hwy 75 and not 50 as should be?
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  2. #22
    Sister of Radiance
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exeon View Post
    th eonly thing i dont like about jormungan is the ratio dmg of energy, hwy 75 and not 50 as should be?
    It's not even really 75%. It's 75% of your base. All capped procs will still do their full amount, and considering how hard those capped procs + premiums that duplicate those procs hit now, you likely lose 1/6th or 1/7th of your damage hitting with E instead of S.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuzoid View Post
    It's not even really 75%. It's 75% of your base. All capped procs will still do their full amount, and considering how hard those capped procs + premiums that duplicate those procs hit now, you likely lose 1/6th or 1/7th of your damage hitting with E instead of S.
    true, I hardly notice much of a difference in damage with energy and stamina.

    almost wonder if it not just being done as 75% of attack/defense and nothing else?

    had pretty much expected them to copy over the fatigued code from the campaigns really.

  4. #24
    Golden Garden Monk Su1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I agree with Sui on Jorm's effect. Although it is much more intense than Rann and much more effective it will likely fade. Although probably last longer.

    Although I do find nearly every event and addition to the game heavily weighted to energy builds.
    The point at which it will fade off will depend on what new gigantic raid comes next in my opinion but because there is a new raid it will already take over Jorms. If the raid cool-down thing ever comes to light then it might be different.

    Compared to not having anything for energy builds in the first couple of years its a nice change. But there hasn't really been too much energy changes except for the newer raids. Energy builds already had the WR/ER advantage from the beginning. I am probably missing something else important but most of the energy changes were just a faster ability to spend energy via higher level quests. Stamina still and will most likely always be the best way to gain SP. When that goes away for stamina they should just have 1 resource bar and let people spend it on anything they want to do. That might be interesting.

  5. #25
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    Just because you do tons of damage on Jorm does not mean you can't get more SP / stamina on other raids. Stop confusing the illusion of lot of damage + resource spent with the number of SP gain.
    Not everyone has tollo...I personally spent 2600 PC so far and got none of those good premiums ( yep, none ). Congrats to those 2% of playerbase that have those premiums.
    Jorm is indeed better for farming SP than doing quests. But i did not pick E build to farm SP. I wanted to do quests, and i did that. Not for the loot, but for the lore.
    Perception was semi useless before, it has even less impact now. Big deal. Your stats start to matter less and less as your legion gets stronger. What is your damage contribution from stats ? 78k attack compared to 2M legion dmg ? No need to QQ for wasting SP on perception.

  6. #26
    Sister of Radiance rulidegreat's Avatar
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    i like Jormungan the way it is..
    stam build just being paranoid, S-build still got more advantage than E-build

  7. #27
    Spell Slinger StarDust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerHell-WS View Post
    In comparison ill do 150b damage to Jorms on 8k energy.
    but a 3b health energy raid is just wrong
    paraphrased a bit but, just how do you manage to do 150b on a 3b health raid?

    I like the raid just fine. Only thing I don't like is the cd timer - way too long

  8. #28
    Silver Arrow Enigma's Avatar
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    Be kind, you know he means 3T health energy raid.

    This thread is so pointless. The devs don't care what I think about this.

    The raid is in the game and it certainly isn't going anywhere now.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tudi View Post
    ...
    Perception was semi useless before, it has even less impact now. Big deal. Your stats start to matter less and less as your legion gets stronger. What is your damage contribution from stats ? 78k attack compared to 2M legion dmg ? No need to QQ for wasting SP on perception.
    For me as an energy build, perception became really usefull after i bought Utym ...
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  10. #30
    Golden Garden Monk
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    NO. is it now a major preferred farming raid for people who can hit big. yes, ill hit any and all i see the direct sp and the sp crafting return is awesome. Horth is not prefered because jorm is just better, also D Dreams is a solid big hitter farming raid
    to me the issue is how many Gigantic raids are being released

  11. #31
    World Mender Plundarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scuzoid View Post
    To add to what su1 said at the start of his post, if/when the raid cooldown changes happen, Jorms won't be that big a deal anymore. They will still die incredibly fast, but 5pg would be wise to give them something close to 200 hour cooldowns. The reality with every raid getting it's own cooldown is that certain raids can be targeted with very low cooldowns, and others with very high cooldowns. Jorm needs a high cooldown.

    Until then, as a 15k/2.5k/70k e/s/percep base build, Octopod + Rising dawn, this raid changes how you play considerably.
    Let us hope it does not get such a horrible cool down. The current one sucks enough.
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  12. #32
    Silver Arrow
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    No.

  13. #33
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    Give it a high enough CD and people will protest, and rightfully so, because it IS the one way energy builds can gather stat points spending energy. Give it a low enough CD and it fails in droves (in farming group events, we have usually 100-150 Jorms each week, more probably as more people will acquire the essence, and it seems quite the effort to have them all die, in house and on time to make the CD for the next event. Now, imagine 3-4 times as many Jorms available per week, for the same pool of hitters, it reminds me of the first Trekex event in CPO with about 250 of them and the toil it was to kill them all - No Octopod set then, only the WR gear which, by today's standards, SUCKS the big one!). If all raids get their individual CDs, I'd say 96h for Jorms is good.

    About questing, I know *I* won't give up on it, not because I need drops (Pano generals would be nice, if they cared to drop for me) or anything but because of AP. We have 20-odd zones we can farm for AP and only ONE raid we can spend energy on. It is a no-brainer if you want AP and the free PC it carries. On the other hand, spending too many SP on energy suddenly becomes attractive again, even if all zones are done for red AP you now have a readily available outlet to spend all that energy and get good SP returns. Since it is only one raid, I don't expect it to prevent people who want to invest on stamina from doing so, all other raids need stamina to be hit and return something so stam investment is here to stay, don't worry.

    About the advantages of E builds, especially on WR/ERs, I beg to differ and let me say why. If someone is an E build, the more "extreme" the E build the better, their base hit is "suffering" from lack of stat advancement. For example, if a player at my level (2700+) is 90% energy (something along the lines of 17k energy/1.5k stamina) and hits for a base of, say, 8-10m per 20-hit, it means he does, on average, 10-12B per level, give or take. I on the other hand, with a base hit of 60-70m per 20-hit, and a balanced build (6k/6.6k at the moment) can land fewer hits, yes, but my overall damage will be in the neighborhood of 35-40B per level (that is without including mount overhits, magics, if present, and assuming a similar set of the key premiums, like Tuss and/or Tollo/Mach). Who has the advantage now? If someone is more stam heavy, like 9k stam and 2k energy, chances are their BSI is even higher, their base hit also much higher, at a point that it totally makes up for the reduced # of hits per level one may deliver. Counting just how many hits one can land is no sure way to estimate damage dealt and in the case of PURE energy I'd say players who chose that path are at a great loss nowadays, now that trillion tiered raids seem to be the "norm" for WRs. Jorm is one way of balancing such extreme builds and until there other Jorms around, other raids that use energy AND pay this good, stam builds have nothing to worry about.

    The whole debate I feel centers on players who started as stamina or balanced and later on turned to energy, once they had built a strong stat base and wanted to increase their total # of hits output. Of course, most of these players populate the top lists, either leaderboards or WR/ER top damage lists already so little in the way of destroying the game!

    Perhaps it would be nice if they released a personal raid that uses only energy too. And make it substantial in health too!!
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrat View Post
    About the advantages of E builds, especially on WR/ERs, I beg to differ and let me say why. If someone is an E build, the more "extreme" the E build the better, their base hit is "suffering" from lack of stat advancement. For example, if a player at my level (2700+) is 90% energy (something along the lines of 17k energy/1.5k stamina) and hits for a base of, say, 8-10m per 20-hit, it means he does, on average, 10-12B per level, give or take. I on the other hand, with a base hit of 60-70m per 20-hit, and a balanced build (6k/6.6k at the moment) can land fewer hits, yes, but my overall damage will be in the neighborhood of 35-40B per level (that is without including mount overhits, magics, if present, and assuming a similar set of the key premiums, like Tuss and/or Tollo/Mach).
    Huh? Where did you pull those number from? There's no way the higher base stats from a stam build would cause a factor of 7 in base dmg compared to an energy build, not even with an empty legion.
    Just to throw in some actual existing numbers. I am lvl 2225, and I have always been an energy build, for the most part I had around 4 times as much energy as stamina (although recently I started adding a litlle more stam to keep up with the gigantic raids). I have 80k attack and 50k def (base). Don't know how much I could have as a stam build, but I doubt I could even reach triple that considering the SP cost increase. And that doesn't even take into account my legion. My total stats (including gear and bonus from Codex etc.) are about 100k A and 60l D, i.e., 460k base dmg contribution. Lets add some attack pots and say 600k dmg. My general purpose legion has >1.2m dmg, so actually only a third of my base dmg comes from my stats. If I wanted to only double my base damage by increasing my stats alone I would need to quadruple my stats. And in terms of SP cost that's even so much more than just a factor of 4. No way I could have achieved that by having a stam build instead. And here I was only even talking about doubling base damage (which would roughly make up for using stam on WRs instead of energy, not even counting other procs). You assert a factor of 7? That's not just exaggerated, that's way out of reach.
    As I have said erlier in this thread (and/or another one) the SP bonus from stam builds is not as big as some people seem to think. The increasing SP costs for stats and the lower raid efficiency (due to not having enough raids at had) lower the actual effect on dmg contribution from stats quite a lot, and with the power-surging legion damage the relative effect on actual raid damage is even lower.

  15. #35
    Spell Slinger
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    It is possible. But not due to lack of SPs, but due to lack of APs (that stamina builds grind more easily).
    You know, missing strong premium ... power gap increases, and after few years, you can reach simmilar damage difference.
    Na ArmorGames hledáme členy pro naší gildu CZ+SK !

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by veny View Post
    It is possible. But not due to lack of SPs, but due to lack of APs (that stamina builds grind more easily).
    You know, missing strong premium ... power gap increases, and after few years, you can reach simmilar damage difference.
    Okay, I didn't count potentially lower legion dmg from AP based fewer prems. But a factor of 7 seems unreachable even for just stats (i.e. an empty legion). I doubt I could have reached triple my stats if I had been a stam build, maybe double could have been a stretch.

  17. #37
    Spell Slinger
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artydent View Post
    Okay, I didn't count potentially lower legion dmg from AP based fewer prems. But a factor of 7 seems unreachable even for just stats (i.e. an empty legion). I doubt I could have reached triple my stats if I had been a stam build, maybe double could have been a stretch.
    Well, sooner or later everyone should reach the phase, where stat loss from being energy is compensated by direct stats from WRs/ERs (where energy builds rules).
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  18. #38
    Hey, you guys remember that time that King Krandar completely invalidated all Stam builds in Legacy of a Thousand Suns? No? Maybe that's because that's not what happened. In a couple weeks/months/whenever the next quest zone drops, there will be new farming raids that will be the new hotness and everybody will be excited about farming them instead of Jorms and it is 99% certain that those future raids will be stam raids, and we'll be back to status quo except that E builds will have had a rare, rare few months (<-optimistically, could only be weeks!) on the top of the heap and they'll have one slightly better option in the future. Relax, people, and don't be so short sighted. Jorms are not ruining the game, they're just shaking up the status quo for a little while.

  19. #39
    Golden Garden Monk
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    Honestly, at first glance of the patch notes, I read "Attacks using energy will have their usual damage reduced by 75%", and thought "Well, that's more than fair, given the abysmal SP return on questing."

    Then I read closely and realized it said "Attacks using energy will be reduced to 75% of the usual damage.", and thought "Holy crap, this is broken as hell, but my BSI is going to skyrocket! "

  20. #40
    Sister of Radiance Ragnarokvii's Avatar
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    Why not just have 1 resource.... get rid of E and S... and make it so level is all that matters, then people cant complain lol

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