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Thread: [Mar 4th, 2015] Magics

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyreAB View Post
    You missed the point. You're comparing a non-general use magic to a general use magic.
    That's because the problem with Shadowstep is during general use.

    Most PC magic is good for everyone, but better for payers. It might not be great for someone who didn't buy out whatever boosts it, but it's usually at least decent (for the time period it's released in).

    At the point 7U was released, for example, it was a magic a free player would want on any general raid. Even if it wasn't as good for them as it would be for people who owned all of the generals, it was still a pretty solid choice. (That was then, of course; power creep.)

    Up until Shadowstep, using (non-outdated) PC magics was usually a generous act. You helped everyone, even if you helped yourself more.

    Shadowstep changes that.

    Using Shadowstep on non-demon raids is a selfish act. It is amazing magic if you bought out the set, but worse than LID if you didn't.

    Someone putting up Shadowstep on non-demon raids is doing something that helps them (and other payers) greatly, while essentially putting up troll magic for non-PTPers.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesuji View Post
    That's because the problem with Shadowstep is during general use.

    Most PC magic is good for everyone, but better for payers. It might not be great for someone who didn't buy out whatever boosts it, but it's usually at least decent (for the time period it's released in).

    At the point 7U was released, for example, it was a magic a free player would want on any general raid. Even if it wasn't as good for them as it would be for people who owned all of the generals, it was still a pretty solid choice. (That was then, of course; power creep.)

    Up until Shadowstep, using (non-outdated) PC magics was usually a generous act. You helped everyone, even if you helped yourself more.

    Shadowstep changes that.
    Boil is 6%, Qwil Killer is 7.8%, Kyddin's Nexus is less than 8.7% free max, Rage of the Twilight free maxes at less than 10%. Shadowstep doesn't change that. The fact is that people are putting a specialty magic on a non-specialty raid. It's going to be sub-par regardless of whether it's a pay magic or a free magic. And again, the comparison used is comparing a specialty magic to a non-specialty magic.


    Using Shadowstep on non-demon raids is a selfish act. It is amazing magic if you bought out the set, but worse than LID if you didn't.

    Someone putting up Shadowstep on non-demon raids is doing something that helps them (and other payers) greatly, while essentially putting up troll magic for non-PTPers.
    Which is again, the exact same thing as if that person put Rage of the Twilight or even Seven Unyielding on that raid. Yes, it has a much lower benefit for non-pay players, but that's hardly the same as putting up a troll magic. In fact, Shadowstep on a General raid is ranked 25 out of 57 for damage magics (not including timer and health based magics, or Haste/QM). Hardly Troll magic.

    All that being said, the issue isn't whether or not Shadowstep is a bad magic, it's that people are putting it on raids it shouldn't go on. The exact same thing occurs whenever a new magic comes out. When Hell's Knell and Begone Fiends were new, they appeared on a lot of non-demon raids. When Boil was new it was also on a lot of non-aquatic raids. It still appears on a lot of them. Same goes for Blood Moon and Rage of the Twilight.

    The only way to avoid that kind of situation is to eliminate specialty magics. Then you won't have people putting them on non-specialty raids. Other than that, it'll just be until the newness wears off and people only put them on their specialty raids unless they either don't care or are intentionally trolling. (Which seems to be a reasonable assumption since KN and RotT appear on a lot of raids even though they are poor general use magics)

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesuji View Post
    That's because the problem with Shadowstep is during general use ...

    Up until Shadowstep, using (non-outdated) PC magics was usually a generous act. You helped everyone, even if you helped yourself more.

    Shadowstep changes that.

    Using Shadowstep on non-demon raids is a selfish act. It is amazing magic if you bought out the set, but worse than LID if you didn't.

    Someone putting up Shadowstep on non-demon raids is doing something that helps them (and other payers) greatly, while essentially putting up troll magic for non-PTPers.
    You get me.

    But i am also getting Lyre's point on Shadowstep, which is ...

    Quote Originally Posted by LyreAB View Post
    The fact is that people are putting a specialty magic on a non-specialty raid. It's going to be sub-par regardless of whether it's a pay magic or a free magic ...
    Still ...

    Quote Originally Posted by LyreAB View Post
    Which is again, the exact same thing as if that person put Rage of the Twilight or even Seven Unyielding on that raid. Yes, it has a much lower benefit for non-pay players, but that's hardly the same as putting up a troll magic. In fact, Shadowstep on a General raid is ranked 25 out of 57 for damage magics (not including timer and health based magics, or Haste/QM). Hardly Troll magic.
    Tesuji had tried to explain this to you. It's the exact thing you replied to, Lyre. So, I regret that i dont know how to explain it further.

    Quote Originally Posted by LyreAB View Post
    All that being said, the issue isn't whether or not Shadowstep is a bad magic, it's that people are putting it on raids it shouldn't go on. The exact same thing occurs whenever a new magic comes out. When Hell's Knell and Begone Fiends were new, they appeared on a lot of non-demon raids. When Boil was new it was also on a lot of non-aquatic raids. It still appears on a lot of them. Same goes for Blood Moon and Rage of the Twilight.

    The only way to avoid that kind of situation is to eliminate specialty magics. Then you won't have people putting them on non-specialty raids. Other than that, it'll just be until the newness wears off and people only put them on their specialty raids unless they either don't care or are intentionally trolling. (Which seems to be a reasonable assumption since KN and RotT appear on a lot of raids even though they are poor general use magics)
    I ... sincerely have a headache now, so I will not be replying to your last reply to my comments (too long, and magic IS a complicated subject). I ... also do not understand why my words there are taken so negatively.

    Didnt really mean it the way you said at all, but ... I guess we have really different viewpoints. Like Cao Cao('s officer) wrote - To each his/her/its own. Not reverting anymore, headache ...

    Cheers, yah?
    Currently trying to share awareness on this - I realized that I dont really need anymore Premium Generals, esp with the Lockbox Premium nonsense~! And -1 to the AP Zone, AND Shop~! And the World Server~! And the 2.5T WR~!
    - Started around Xmas Eve '2010. Lena told me so. And, all the best to her, and Cleo. Never expect myself to outstay them here ...

  4. #24
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    Deleted because it was continuing an argument that wasn't contributing to the OP any more.
    Last edited by LyreAB; 8th March 2015 at 08:51.

  5. #25
    Sister of Radiance Zaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesuji View Post
    That's because the problem with Shadowstep is during general use.

    Most PC magic is good for everyone, but better for payers. It might not be great for someone who didn't buy out whatever boosts it, but it's usually at least decent (for the time period it's released in).

    At the point 7U was released, for example, it was a magic a free player would want on any general raid. Even if it wasn't as good for them as it would be for people who owned all of the generals, it was still a pretty solid choice. (That was then, of course; power creep.)

    Up until Shadowstep, using (non-outdated) PC magics was usually a generous act. You helped everyone, even if you helped yourself more.

    Shadowstep changes that.

    Using Shadowstep on non-demon raids is a selfish act. It is amazing magic if you bought out the set, but worse than LID if you didn't.

    Someone putting up Shadowstep on non-demon raids is doing something that helps them (and other payers) greatly, while essentially putting up troll magic for non-PTPers.
    I agree with this. It didn't have to be flippin' amazing for freebies, but it should be comparable with the other commonly used stuff like GID and what not even at base so it's not holding them back. I mean, let's face it, the free people need the bonus more than the PC players in the grand scheme of things.


    EDIT: Just to clarify, I understand both sides of the debate, but I think it leads to more trouble than it should doing it this way. People already have magic that is free that is better than SS for general raid use and while it's great for demons it holds free people back on the others and it'll just be people fighting over using it (as usual). Not every magic needs to be the most amazing, but 5pg needs to use better logic to prevent that kind of thing. We have enough magics doing it already.

    EDIT2: RoT 4 lyfe. :P
    i am just here to slayer the monsters...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelle View Post
    I agree with this. It didn't have to be flippin' amazing for freebies, but 1. it should be comparable with the other commonly used stuff like GID and what not even at base so it's not holding them back. I mean, let's face it, the free people need the bonus more than the PC players in the grand scheme of things.


    EDIT: Just to clarify, I understand both sides of the debate, but I think it leads to more trouble than it should doing it this way. People already have magic that is free that is better than SS for general raid use and while it's great for demons it holds free people back on the others and it'll just be people fighting over using it (as usual). Not every magic needs to be the most amazing, but 5pg needs to use better logic to prevent that kind of thing. 2. We have enough magics doing it already.
    1. Yah. Was stressing about the benchmark all these while. It's the all important thingy here.

    2. Again, exactly. That was the old design formula which worked, as in, "Not every magic needs to be the most amazing". I believe it's also the reason why Magic Red AP is set at 30 only, since the start of DotD in 2010. It simply made sense. Really, again, stressing on the potential of new magic for Campaigns. A new clean slate to work with ...

    Also, if not for Claudia, the quantity of magic is actually a non-issue. OK, maybe that free witch too. This also highlights the implications on how a premium will affect future game design, years later.
    Currently trying to share awareness on this - I realized that I dont really need anymore Premium Generals, esp with the Lockbox Premium nonsense~! And -1 to the AP Zone, AND Shop~! And the World Server~! And the 2.5T WR~!
    - Started around Xmas Eve '2010. Lena told me so. And, all the best to her, and Cleo. Never expect myself to outstay them here ...

  7. #27
    Sister of Radiance Zaelle's Avatar
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    I think you mean Clara rather than Claudia? :P
    i am just here to slayer the monsters...

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelle View Post
    I think you mean Clara rather than Claudia? :P
    ... yah~! Sorry~! My headache was real, hehe ...
    Currently trying to share awareness on this - I realized that I dont really need anymore Premium Generals, esp with the Lockbox Premium nonsense~! And -1 to the AP Zone, AND Shop~! And the World Server~! And the 2.5T WR~!
    - Started around Xmas Eve '2010. Lena told me so. And, all the best to her, and Cleo. Never expect myself to outstay them here ...

  9. #29
    Sister of Radiance Mace's Avatar
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    It seems Cylian and Tesuji pretty much said everything I might say. So I will talk little on how I believe Shadowstep is a failure.

    Magics are a community factor and are ever-changing. Making PC magics scaled based on how gear is scaled stronger from PC use is a detriment to the community. A small boost is understandable it will have little effect however making it twice, triple, or quadruple as strong is poor magic mechanics. Magics sell well everyone loves them they do not have to scale to PC extremes.

    "Magics often impact multiple players as opposed to just the one who applied it, so we get to design something with a “bigger scale” in mind so to speak."

    A fantastic quote and I love to hear it. I would just like to see the magics implemented in the game also agree with what you have said. The recent ones do not. I look forward to the seemingly brighter future for magics that you have hinted at.

    All said and done it might give off the feeling that I am upset with the direction the game is going, that could not be further from the case. Do I dislike certain aspects and feel certain other aspects are severely unbalanced. Sure, however I hold it to this high standard only because 5PG has done such an excellent job in most things related to DotD.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by miztickow View Post
    Anniversary Magic: Chance for damage; Increased damage for each Anniversary Legion (BD, GD1/2, CD1/2, etc.) owned; increased damage if you're using an Anniversary Legion.
    Probably not the best idea. It's rather punishing to newer players for no particular reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cylian View Post
    3a. ... only true "bad" design I can think of, is in Shadowstep. This has been well-discussed recently. Summary - 5% base, yet at 25PCs, more expensive than Stanza which is 12.6% (and who doesnt own the free musical magics in due time) at only 15PCs (i think).
    The relevant facts are:

    a) This magic is ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE for free players on generic raids by itself.

    b) This magic is ABSOLUTELY AMAZING for PC players who maxed it out on generic raids by itself.

    The logical conclusion is:

    c) Free players will be punished with an inferior magic as PC players put it on raids in place of magics that would be superior for free players.

    The resulting corollary is:

    d) Free and PC players will come into direct conflict because of this magic design.



    I VERY SPECIFICALLY pointed this problem out to devs before it was released in the previous magic Q&A, but it seems I was ignored. DO NOT make magics that are MUCH WORSE for free players than what they'd otherwise get, but make them MUCH BETTER than what would otherwise be used for PC players. This is TERRIBLE design. If the PC item owned boosts only contributed to the demon damage it would have been much better. Alternatively, the base damage could have been doubled (So that it would be 10%, not really punishing for free players) and the ownership boosts and/or base demon boost and/or combo boost reduced to retain current maximums.
    Last edited by GriffonSpade; 11th March 2015 at 03:35.

  11. #31
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    As a followup, Feeding Frenzy has this same problem. You're not just rewarding those who participated in the event/bought the items, you're deliberately punishing those who did not. Reward those who buy the PC items or participate in the event, but don't punish those who didn't with these kinds of magics.

    Furthermore, fixing Feeding Frenzy would be the easiest of them all: Simply take the bonus off of monster fisherman and put it onto the base damage of the magic, leaving only the hooks to boost it.

    To Illustrate the problem, I will compare it to the low end of 'generic' magics, and the free standard: Greater Impending Doom. Top Tier proc rates rounded to the nearest percent.

    Magic Proc Rate Proc Size Min, Generic Max, Generic Min, Aquatic Max, Aquatic
    Greater Impending Doom 2% 555% 11.1% 11.1% 11.1% 11.1%
    Feeding Frenzy 10% 50-350% 5% 25% 15% 35%
    Difference -6.1% +13.9% +3.9% +23.9%


    Aquatic:
    Min: This is a good magic, more powerful than Greater Impending Doom, and will continue to be good for at least a while.
    Max: This is an absolutely amazing magic, one of the most powerful in the game, over three times as powerful as Greater Impending Doom.


    Generic:
    Min: This magic is terrible, with a slew of far superior magics that would do better in its place, with under half the power of Greater Impending Doom.
    Max: This magic is one of the most powerful magics in the game at over double the power of Greater Impending Doom.

    As you can see, this is incredibly punishing for free players, who would normally get other magics that are more useful against generic raids.




    Adding the Monster Fisherman's bonus onto the base would change it to this comparison:

    Magic Proc Rate Proc Size Min, Generic Max, Generic Min, Aquatic Max, Aquatic
    Greater Impending Doom 2% 555% 11.1% 11.1% 11.1% 11.1%
    Feeding Frenzy 10% 100-350% 10% 25% 20% 35%
    Difference -1.1% +13.9% +8.9% +23.9%

    Aquatic:
    Min: This is a great magic, almost twice as powerful as Greater Impending Doom, and will continue to be great for a long time.
    (No Change)Max: This is an absolutely amazing magic, one of the most powerful in the game, over three times as powerful as Greater Impending Doom.


    Generic:
    Min: This magic is decent, just a little below the power of Greater Impending Doom.
    (No Change)Max: This magic is one of the most powerful magics in the game at over double the power of Greater Impending Doom.
    Last edited by GriffonSpade; 12th March 2015 at 04:43.

  12. #32
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    Firstly I'm bumping this thread.

    I want another pb magic: a 2% chance of 1250% damage (I stole these numbers from mobile DotD's Fatal Aim magic but we'd have to call it something else since we already have a Fatal Aim magic).

    Dido Celwer Bloodwyn's Final Ballad: A 25% chance of 100% damage. An additional 60% dmg vs deadly raids and a 5% chance to restore 300 health on a 20x.

    An AP badge progress-based dmg magic. Numbers to follow: gotta go dust-off my slide-rule...

  13. #33
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    Yes, I too have to agree with benorin..I too would like to see another Pb magic . With higher damaged tier raids like in the deadlies , we are doing a greater amount of hitting to reach the tiers of our choice. And a new Pb magic would be a great add on to the game.

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