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Thread: [Mar 4th, 2015] Magics

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    Community Manager Logann's Avatar
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    [Mar 4th, 2015] Magics

    Greetings and welcome to another edition of Developer’s Digest. If you’re just joining us for the first time, this is an ongoing Monday, Wednesday and Friday post that provides insight and answers from the Dawn Development team (mostly from me, Mouse) into community concerns and questions.

    Magics
    Earlier in the year we spoke a little bit about adding more Magics into Dawn; especially free Magics. Since then we’ve added a handful with more scheduled throughout the year.

    Magics are enjoyable for us as they’re very different to design than almost any other item in the game. Magics often impact multiple players as opposed to just the one who applied it, so we get to design something with a “bigger scale” in mind so to speak.

    While there are practically an endless sea of ideas we could use for Magics, we do have a small list of possible concepts that we’ve been kicking around:
    • Specialized, vs a specific race Magics
    • Magics that have more interaction with a particular race, attribute or role
    • Crazy random Magics (like Insanity Laughs)
    • Magics that have more interaction with a particular legion
    • Magics that share better synergy between one another


    Again, that’s a pretty small list but gives some insight into a few concepts we’re considering. We have heard your request for a Magic that caps the amount of damage you can do to a raid, but we’d prefer to explore other options first.

    Conclusion
    We knew going into 2015 that we wanted to up the anty on Magics overall; so far we’re pretty pleased with the number we’ve released but more are on the way! And we’ll be mixing it up to ensure there are more free Magics as well.

    --------
    Posted on the behalf of Mouse, by Logann.

    Please leave your feedback and questions here for possibly getting them answered by the team.
    ** NOTE: Not every question can or will be answered, but we will do our best to answer as many as possible. This will be a Monday, Wednesday, Friday digest of Questions and Answers.

    Logann
    Dragon Tamer
    Last edited by Logann; 23rd March 2015 at 21:54.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Logann View Post
    • Magics that have more interaction with a particular legion

    Please dont make NIP/RP/PC magics that will suck for everyone without the sets legion(going from 5% avg dmg to 20% for example)
    You can make the magics have such jumps if the legion is freely obtainable(but hard to get ofcourse)
    Free magics: OK
    PC magics: pls no ;_;

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    These sound like interesting concepts, I'm eager to see what you guys come up with...Can I request that you make the "Specialized, vs a specific race Magics" only castable on raids of that race?

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    - Magic that gains power as your stamina bar is low?
    - Magic based on the amount of items (gear) you have?
    - Magic based on the amount of troops or generals you have?

    Leader of Kronos II

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    still waiting for a magic to power up low hp raids so we can start farming ap for those again

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    Sargaash the Mighty equal miztickow's Avatar
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    Anniversary Magic: Chance for damage; Increased damage for each Anniversary Legion (BD, GD1/2, CD1/2, etc.) owned; increased damage if you're using an Anniversary Legion.

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    Sister of Radiance Mace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logann View Post
    Greetings and welcome to another edition of Developer’s Digest. If you’re just joining us for the first time, this is an ongoing Monday, Wednesday and Friday post that provides insight and answers from the Dawn Development team (mostly from me, Mouse) into community concerns and questions.

    Magics
    Earlier in the year we spoke a little bit about adding more Magics into Dawn; especially free Magics. Since then we’ve added a handful with more scheduled throughout the year.

    Magics are enjoyable for us as they’re very different to design than almost any other item in the game. Magics often impact multiple players as opposed to just the one who applied it, so we get to design something with a “bigger scale” in mind so to speak.

    While there are practically an endless sea of ideas we could use for Magics, we do have a small list of possible concepts that we’ve been kicking around:
    • Specialized, vs a specific race Magics
    • Magics that have more interaction with a particular race, attribute or role
    • Crazy random Magics (like Insanity Laughs)
    • Magics that have more interaction with a particular legion
    • Magics that share better synergy between one another


    Again, that’s a pretty small list but gives some insight into a few concepts we’re considering. We have heard your request for a Magic that caps the amount of damage you can do to a raid, but we’d prefer to explore other options first.

    Conclusion
    We knew going into 2015 that we wanted to up the anty on Magics overall; so far we’re pretty pleased with the number we’ve released but more are on the way! And we’ll be mixing it up to ensure there are more free Magics as well.

    --------
    Posted on the behalf of Mouse, by Logann.

    Please leave your feedback and questions here for possibly getting them answered by the team.
    ** NOTE: Not every question can or will be answered, but we will do our best to answer as many as possible. This will be a Monday, Wednesday, Friday digest of Questions and Answers.

    Logann
    Dragon Tamer
    I think legion specific magics are dangerous. It would have to be very specifically made. From a questing area or a raid. If it was from a WR/ER the limited time factor would damage the magics quality. If it was a PC legion it would also limit the magics quality. At the same time the magic would most likely become useless when that legion goes out of favor.

    'Magics often impact multiple players as opposed to just the one who applied it, so we get to design something with a “bigger scale” in mind so to speak.'

    I love that quote. However we just got a PC magic last month that is the worst offender at this design. Shadowstep scales off a limited time PC set to be insanely good. However it is insanely bad for everyone who does not buy the set. 4 demon magics were released that month 2 PC and 2 Free and the free ones were mediocre in comparison. Making 4 magics used in the exact same circumstance (Demons) at the exact same time, might be a bad idea. I liked the demon theme but the 2 free ones could have been Orc/Golbin or something so they were not useless the day they were made since the 2 PC ones are drastically better. It is good to hear that you guys are looking at the 'bigger scale' of things but the track record is rough.

    I also love that more types of magics are being thought of. Obviously damage is always going to be priority for use but there are other cool options to make them more than a simple proc.

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    How about magics that have copy effects? Not on the order of a mount copy, but for instance having a magic that copied any Main Hand procs, or one that copied any X-At-Arms procs.

    Magics that have increased damage the lower your bars are (as was suggested earlier in this thread) might not be good, unless it's by a % of your base bar, because then energy builds would have a distinct advantage over stam builds.

    How about a magic that gives bonus damage in proportion to the raid's remaining health? So it gives a large bonus to fresh, large health raids, and a small bonus to low health raids? Or one that gives damage in inverse proportion to the remaining timer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logann View Post
    We have heard your request for a Magic that caps the amount of damage you can do to a raid, but we’d prefer to explore other options first.
    With the addition of the QM neck and the Haste neck I would think that instead of a magic that caps your damage a Neck item would be better suited.... Juts not Crazy hard RNG based to get Maybe have it for sale in the bazzar
    I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself.
    A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.

    The Immortal Insurgi, 16th Drake Slayer, 12th Demigod. Insurgi's (AP, FS, OS, Max) Raid Damage Table

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    Sister of Radiance Mace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 'Beta Nu' View Post
    With the addition of the QM neck and the Haste neck I would think that instead of a magic that caps your damage a Neck item would be better suited.... Juts not Crazy hard RNG based to get Maybe have it for sale in the bazzar
    That would not solve the problem though. The summoner of a raid cannot force everyone to put a neck on but he can install a magic on his raid. I do love the idea of using necks to fulfill cool functions like this though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    That would not solve the problem though. The summoner of a raid cannot force everyone to put a neck on but he can install a magic on his raid. I do love the idea of using necks to fulfill cool functions like this though.
    the summoners who would use the magic are the same who would use the neck item and share the raid with others who want to get the AP on the smaller raids..... as a Magic it would be used for trolling way to much.

    I don't know about on Kong but for FB there would be alot more events for smaller raids if a neck item did exist that reduced your damage
    I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself.
    A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.

    The Immortal Insurgi, 16th Drake Slayer, 12th Demigod. Insurgi's (AP, FS, OS, Max) Raid Damage Table

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    Sister of Radiance Mace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 'Beta Nu' View Post
    the summoners who would use the magic are the same who would use the neck item and share the raid with others who want to get the AP on the smaller raids..... as a Magic it would be used for trolling way to much.

    I don't know about on Kong but for FB there would be alot more events for smaller raids if a neck item did exist that reduced your damage
    As a magic it would have to be a new mechanic I agree. It would have to be summoner only. It should be fairly easy to implement but I am no expert.

    A neck would certainly be helpful but imo it would not solve the problem just bandaid it.

    Lots of good magic ideas in here already, they are endless.

    Magic scaled off total Achievement Points.
    Magic scaled off a PvP Rank or total combined PvP Ranks. (Invasion, Duel, Colly)
    Magic scaled off Premium Food. (Legions, Equipment, Troops, Generals, Familiars, Magics, etc)
    Magic scaled off premium food specifics. (general/troops specific race, type, attribute, role)
    Magic scaled off Kezeraa's Harvested/Sculpted's

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    As a magic it would have to be a new mechanic I agree. It would have to be summoner only. It should be fairly easy to implement but I am no expert.

    A neck would certainly be helpful but imo it would not solve the problem just bandaid it.

    Lots of good magic ideas in here already, they are endless.

    Magic scaled off total Achievement Points.
    Magic scaled off a PvP Rank or total combined PvP Ranks. (Invasion, Duel, Colly)
    Magic scaled off Premium Food. (Legions, Equipment, Troops, Generals, Familiars, Magics, etc)
    Magic scaled off premium food specifics. (general/troops specific race, type, attribute, role)
    Magic scaled off Kezeraa's Harvested/Sculpted's
    PVP Magic would be awesome. Right now, the majority of players who don't go for crowns in PVP have gotten to safe ranks and don't bother going beyond that. PVP magics would give us incentive to use this system once again However, I would hold off on such a magic until after much of PVP has been revamped, especially invasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JHawk55 View Post
    PVP Magic would be awesome. Right now, the majority of players who don't go for crowns in PVP have gotten to safe ranks and don't bother going beyond that. PVP magics would give us incentive to use this system once again However, I would hold off on such a magic until after much of PVP has been revamped, especially invasion.
    Maybe having a magic that deals damage equal to 1/10 your total pvp points would work. Upper limit currently would be 50k per 1-hit (for 500k points, 250k duel, 100k invasion, 150k colo). Which if it's a 100% proc rate isn't going to add that much damage overall. It is, however, still consistent with existing "magics" (referring to an ops tactic from LoTS that adds a fixed amount of damage). If they go with a 10% rate, they could even make it equal to total pvp points instead.

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    Wanna talk about Magic yesterday, but wasnt in the mood ...

    1. My humble view - actually most people cared more about the final damage output than, say, how the damages are calculated, I believe.

    2. The benchmark used have to be Immortal and Zoe (lvl 2500 and 5000) magics, at 20% and 24% respectively. But these are magics that are well-deserved, as hard-earned rewards. Nothing wrong with that.

    3. Over the years, DotD (and ignoring LotS in this discussion) had done well with the synergy- and race-specific magics ...

    *. I personally love Leprechaun's Luck and Brough's Trick. They are actually very well designed, because to use them, the summoners have to be actively monitoring their raids, since they are only usable near the end-time of the raids. It might be time to put them in the Citadels, or in an Irish-themed event, and give them to the players. As an incentive for players to monitor their raids. At 25% and 24%, with a synergy to boot, people will pay attention. Very well-designed, as said.

    3a. ... only true "bad" design I can think of, is in Shadowstep. This has been well-discussed recently. Summary - 5% base, yet at 25PCs, more expensive than Stanza which is 12.6% (and who doesnt own the free musical magics in due time) at only 15PCs (i think).

    3b. If Boil is usable in the 2.5T WR (like HK and Begone in Etchy), then it would have been ... understandable, in design. But for now, it may have been too OP-ed, widening the power gap a bit too much. The weaker and newer players may be happy for now about Boil at 36% minimum for Aqua raids, but wait till the next Aqua raid is been designed with this power creep. It's the typical moving-the-goalposts thingy that many loyal oldbies have come to dislike ... (because the result is a 2.5T WR. What's next?)

    3c. The various Demon magics sold, some for "free", in Feb, is a good point to elaborate on point 1. If players want to increase damages for a Demon raid with six magic slots for all possible hitters, the first two magics would be ... Zoe-equivalent and Immortal. The standard by now.

    Then, it ... might be the ... "free" Exorcism (I saw 18%), which might be rare for a year or two. The next one might be the old PC magic Rage of the Twilight (about another ~18% if one owns some free Orocs characters). And so on, using the wonderful list complied by the community, for the community ...

    In fact, the last four magics would actually be about personal preference, once the Immortal/Zoe standard spikes are secured. Someone like me who loves surprises will put Haste just to get the thrill of seeing SoWW/IS mount spikes + magics for the chance to see a billion ... followed by HK and Begone (another 25% total), just because I believe by putting one early, people would understand and put the another one in. For the sake of discussion, let's assume I dont have Shadowstep (17% Demon base) in time, and a GID (~12%) came up.

    My choices are from the viewpoint of a free player (this has to be stressed), who would gain some ~80%. e.g. A whale will want Mark + Shadowstep (30% + 35%), whose two magics would already be close to Cylian's ~80% total. But I would take a longterm view with foresight, and realized that the majority of my raid's hitters will not be whales, esp after the initial interest.

    If I am a casual player with a bit of cash and did my calculations, I ... would not buy, no, gamble, for Mark. By extension, I might buy Shadowstep if it was as cheap as 15PCs Stanza in the past, but at 25PCs? Am I supporting the decision to keep raising prices for myself, a smart casual player would ask him/her/itself (hey, who knows? ) So, in effect, a free and/or casual player will ignore ALL the magic launched in Demon Feb.

    3d. Why the conclusion in 3c? The new Demon magics are not as well-designed as the magics of old. No one complained about Qwil-Killer despite it's limited use, because it is around the Immortal/Zoe benchmark. People didnt complain about Rage of the Twilight because difference between a whale and a free player is only ~7%. (By the way, digression, but IMPORTANT - If I knew about this info way in advance, I would have bought it then at, ermm, 10PCs? 15?)

    4. Since I started, might as well continue - Just provide more actual information about the magics, since people would more likely buy something that they know concretely about. Also, people have explained to you so well already - the community's expectations of free magic isnt your kind of "free" magic. I sincerely hope I can get the citadel demon magics in one year, if I am lucky enough~!

    5. Finally, I want to come back to Haste and QM again. Designed ~4 years ago, some people love them, some hate them, but no one can deny this - They are so different that they are their own category. Just like the Health stuff, again, maybe ~4 years ago.

    The good thing is that suggestions are plentiful, just from this post. The guide is simple, just follow point 1 and 2 and 4, and to stop doing point 3a-d. I do hope that the game engine can support these ideas though ...

    Point CYLIAN - Campaign magic. They can be done (Mouse is LotS dev too, he knows anyway), they should be done.
    Last edited by Cylian; 6th March 2015 at 08:33.
    Currently trying to share awareness on this - I realized that I dont really need anymore Premium Generals, esp with the Lockbox Premium nonsense~! And -1 to the AP Zone, AND Shop~! And the World Server~! And the 2.5T WR~!
    - Started around Xmas Eve '2010. Lena told me so. And, all the best to her, and Cleo. Never expect myself to outstay them here ...

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    Community Manager Logann's Avatar
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    Excellent feedback Dragon Masters! Thank you!

    As always, Mouse and the design team review the feedback on the Daily Digests often. This is a great place to get your specific feedback heard and understood.

    Keep up the great work out there Dragon Masters!

    Logann
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cylian View Post
    3a. ... only true "bad" design I can think of, is in Shadowstep. This has been well-discussed recently. Summary - 5% base, yet at 25PCs, more expensive than Stanza which is 12.6% (and who doesnt own the free musical magics in due time) at only 15PCs (i think).
    First of all, you're comparing a specialty magic to a non-specialty magic. Stanzas is 12.6% avg against any raid (assuming a free player), and yes, Shadowstep is only 5.5% avg against that same raid. However, against Demons, which is what it's designed for, Shadowstep is 18.7% avg, or almost half again as good as Stanzas, with no pieces of the Shadow Slip set.

    Second, you're overlooking the fact that Shadowstep has a second effect. It turns Mark of the Raven's Wing from a 10% any raid magic into a 20% any raid magic simply because you own Shadowstep and someone else managed to get MotRW.

    3b. If Boil is usable in the 2.5T WR (like HK and Begone in Etchy), then it would have been ... understandable, in design. But for now, it may have been too OP-ed, widening the power gap a bit too much. The weaker and newer players may be happy for now about Boil at 36% minimum for Aqua raids, but wait till the next Aqua raid is been designed with this power creep. It's the typical moving-the-goalposts thingy that many loyal oldbies have come to dislike ... (because the result is a 2.5T WR. What's next?)
    Boil is no more OP compared to free magics than the Aquatic Pack set is to Furious Fishing. So not really sure what your point is here, other than you don't think that pay gear ought to be more powerful than free gear.

    3c. The various Demon magics sold, some for "free", in Feb, is a good point to elaborate on point 1. If players want to increase damages for a Demon raid with six magic slots for all possible hitters, the first two magics would be ... Zoe-equivalent and Immortal. The standard by now.

    Then, it ... might be the ... "free" Exorcism (I saw 18%), which might be rare for a year or two. The next one might be the old PC magic Rage of the Twilight (about another ~18% if one owns some free Orocs characters). And so on, using the wonderful list complied by the community, for the community ...

    In fact, the last four magics would actually be about personal preference, once the Immortal/Zoe standard spikes are secured. Someone like me who loves surprises will put Haste just to get the thrill of seeing SoWW/IS mount spikes + magics for the chance to see a billion ... followed by HK and Begone (another 25% total), just because I believe by putting one early, people would understand and put the another one in. For the sake of discussion, let's assume I dont have Shadowstep (17% Demon base) in time, and a GID (~12%) came up.

    My choices are from the viewpoint of a free player (this has to be stressed), who would gain some ~80%. e.g. A whale will want Mark + Shadowstep (30% + 35%), whose two magics would already be close to Cylian's ~80% total. But I would take a longterm view with foresight, and realized that the majority of my raid's hitters will not be whales, esp after the initial interest.

    If I am a casual player with a bit of cash and did my calculations, I ... would not buy, no, gamble, for Mark. By extension, I might buy Shadowstep if it was as cheap as 15PCs Stanza in the past, but at 25PCs? Am I supporting the decision to keep raising prices for myself, a smart casual player would ask him/her/itself (hey, who knows? ) So, in effect, a free and/or casual player will ignore ALL the magic launched in Demon Feb.
    Top 10 Demon Magics for free players to have on a raid (not necessarily own):

    1. Level 5000
    2. Feeding Frenzy (with 6 Hooks)
    3. Rage of the Twilight
    4. Mark of the Raven's Wing
    5. Possession
    6. Level 2500
    7. Shadowstep
    8. Exorcism
    9. Fearless Advance
    10. Stanzas of Slaughter

    And that is without including synergies for complementary magics. Of those, all four new magics made the list, and out of those, 1 you really ought to own (Shadowstep), and 2 you will eventually get anyways. So, by saying that the casual/free player will or ought to ignore those magics, you're eliminating almost half the top 10 magics.

    If you're going for increasing the damage for every player (including new players with no magic/gear) then the list changes quite a bit, with Feeding Frenzy and Stanzas removed, Rage shuffled down to the bottom, then GID and IL below Rage. None of which affects the fact that all four new magics still are on the top 10 list, in fact being higher on the list than for longer term players who have some of the boosters for FF/Stanzas/Rage.

    A demon raid with Level 5000, Level 2500, Exorcism, Rage, HK, and BF, as you suggested, would have an average damage boost of 102.4% for someone just starting, and 106.6% for a max free player. Compare that to a demon raid with MotRW, Shadowstep, Possession, Exorcism, Rage, and Level 2500, a combination which is easier to get than holding out for the Level 5k magic. A new player gets 120.5%, an 18% increase, while a max free player gets 124.7%. I'd say an extra 18% damage, the equivalent of adding a seventh magic, makes the four new magics worth having in the game, even for free players.

    3d. Why the conclusion in 3c? The new Demon magics are not as well-designed as the magics of old. No one complained about Qwil-Killer despite it's limited use, because it is around the Immortal/Zoe benchmark. People didnt complain about Rage of the Twilight because difference between a whale and a free player is only ~7%. (By the way, digression, but IMPORTANT - If I knew about this info way in advance, I would have bought it then at, ermm, 10PCs? 15?)
    For comparison, since you're complaining about two PC magics and two non-PC magics not being as well designed as another PC magic, MotRW tops out at 30% and Shadowstep tops out at 38.5%, both higher than either QKF or Level 5k. Possession and Exorcism, being free magics, are still a respectable 20% and 18% without synergies, which puts them still well above any other free magics except Level 5k and Level 2.5k (and max FF). So I fail to see how they're not as well designed.

    4. Since I started, might as well continue - Just provide more actual information about the magics, since people would more likely buy something that they know concretely about. Also, people have explained to you so well already - the community's expectations of free magic isnt your kind of "free" magic. I sincerely hope I can get the citadel demon magics in one year, if I am lucky enough~!
    Since they provide every bit of information on new magics as they have provided for old magics, I don't see any reason why you feel that they should provide actual numbers on them. If it wasn't for the community, you wouldn't have numbers on any magics or gear (with only a handful of exceptions where the devs provided hard numbers because the community discovered they weren't working properly). If you're one of those people that want hard numbers before you buy something, than feel free to not buy it. You're talking about magics, so you don't really need to buy it, just hope someone else buys it for you and puts it on the raid.

  18. #18
    Sister of Radiance Zaelle's Avatar
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    Feedback: You spelled ante wrong.
    i am just here to slayer the monsters...

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    Hi, Lyre. OK, I am not complaining here, sincerely. I am feedback-ing. Will try to go point by point to see where I go wrong though.

    Quote Originally Posted by LyreAB View Post
    1st of all, you're comparing a specialty magic to a non-specialty magic. Stanzas is 12.6% avg against any raid (assuming a free player), and yes, Shadowstep is only 5.5% avg against that same raid. However, against Demons, which is what it's designed for, Shadowstep is 18.7% avg, or almost half again as good as Stanzas, with no pieces of the Shadow Slip set.

    Second, you're overlooking the fact that Shadowstep has a second effect. It turns Mark of the Raven's Wing from a 10% any raid magic into a 20% any raid magic simply because you own Shadowstep and someone else managed to get MotRW.
    Actually I am comparing PC magic to PC magic, from the viewpoint of a mainly free player (like I always do).

    Firstly, I compared Shadowstep with Stanza, indeed. But I am comparing them as general PC magic first. Hence the 5% non-demon base for Shadowstep used, vs ~12% for Stanza (because, again, I repeat, the musical magic isnt that different to get even for a free player)

    Secondly, I didnt ignore MarkRaven. I actually explained in point 3c that a casual paying player would not gamble for it. The implication here is twohold, one, the casual player likely wont know it's +10% for the Shadowstep/Mark sync, and two, it's a gamble. In point 4, I suggest that f this is made known clearly, then maybe people would be more willing to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by LyreAB View Post
    Boil is no more OP compared to free magics than the Aquatic Pack set is to Furious Fishing. So not really sure what your point is here, other than you don't think that pay gear ought to be more powerful than free gear.
    OK, here ... the short explanation is that equipment set is personal (a PC player should always be stronger than a free player, I always like to stress), but magic affects the entire power-curve that the devs used to create the next Aqua raid, for the sake of continuing this discussion.

    The assumption from devs has to be that 36% Boil will be on the majority of the next new Aqua raids, so the new raid's health have to go up accordingly. Widening the power creep further. It's one of the last thing we want to do to the game. That's my feedback, along with some others all these years.

    Quote Originally Posted by LyreAB View Post
    Top 10 Demon Magics for free players to have on a raid (not necessarily own):

    1. Level 5000
    2. Feeding Frenzy (with 6 Hooks)
    3. Rage of the Twilight
    4. Mark of the Raven's Wing
    5. Possession
    6. Level 2500
    7. Shadowstep
    8. Exorcism
    9. Fearless Advance
    10. Stanzas of Slaughter

    And that is without including synergies for complementary magics. Of those, all four new magics made the list, and out of those, 1 you really ought to own (Shadowstep), and 2 you will eventually get anyways. So, by saying that the casual/free player will or ought to ignore those magics, you're eliminating almost half the top 10 magics.

    If you're going for increasing the damage for every player (including new players with no magic/gear) then the list changes quite a bit, with Feeding Frenzy and Stanzas removed, Rage shuffled down to the bottom, then GID and IL below Rage. None of which affects the fact that all four new magics still are on the top 10 list, in fact being higher on the list than for longer term players who have some of the boosters for FF/Stanzas/Rage.

    A demon raid with Level 5000, Level 2500, Exorcism, Rage, HK, and BF, as you suggested, would have an average damage boost of 102.4% for someone just starting, and 106.6% for a max free player. Compare that to a demon raid with MotRW, Shadowstep, Possession, Exorcism, Rage, and Level 2500, a combination which is easier to get than holding out for the Level 5k magic. A new player gets 120.5%, an 18% increase, while a max free player gets 124.7%. I'd say an extra 18% damage, the equivalent of adding a seventh magic, makes the four new magics worth having in the game, even for free players.
    2. Most free players will not have 6 hooks. I only have three, because I didnt know how good Frenzy turned out. (In fact I hit like 250bil, then stopped, because it's getting too boring. (Else 300bil, and another hook.) But that's another topic for another day. Already regretting the time spent on the forums here, sigh ...)

    Then, another assumption here - we are talking in very general and casual terms here. For example, Zoe and Immortal are 25% and 20%, but I would simply lump them together, because it's simply easier to think this way. By the way, they are the true free magic here. By the way, Possession and Exorcism isnt truly .... "free". Some have already noted and posted here - only whales seemed to have them now. There is a reason why, yah?

    I ... actually can go on further to explain why I said what I said (hint - I mentioned my preference of just dumping my magic. My free, relatively casual style), and it is not that your points are wrong. Your points are correct, yes, but again, my point actually is - a free and casual player will ignore all the Feb Demon magic because a quick mental count would make them not want to buy/gamble and/or waste time/effort on them. You get what I mean now?

    Quote Originally Posted by LyreAB View Post
    For comparison, since you're complaining about two PC magics and two non-PC magics not being as well designed as another PC magic, MotRW tops out at 30% and Shadowstep tops out at 38.5%, both higher than either QKF or Level 5k. Possession and Exorcism, being free magics, are still a respectable 20% and 18% without synergies, which puts them still well above any other free magics except Level 5k and Level 2.5k (and max FF). So I fail to see how they're not as well designed.
    Sigh ... another 5 mins. I ...

    I am not complaining. I am feedback-ing. If I am, my words will not be the same. Some regular folks know this by now, I think.

    To me, there are PC-magic and free magic, and there are free magic, and there are "free" magic.

    Anyway, to save more time - in short, I used Twilight to illustrate what is a better magic design - closer to the Zoe/Immortal benchmark, yet still providing a difference in ~7% for free vs PC players. Basically a true win-win-win design.

    The recent 30+% magics are going to pull the power-creep further, that is what I am saying. The effects would be felt by the newer and weaker players in future. The game design has to be real careful about this, because we are losing players, and not getting new players for reasons like this.

    For DotD's longevity, a very long term is necessary ...


    Quote Originally Posted by LyreAB View Post
    Since they provide every bit of information on new magics as they have provided for old magics, I don't see any reason why you feel that they should provide actual numbers on them. If it wasn't for the community, you wouldn't have numbers on any magics or gear (with only a handful of exceptions where the devs provided hard numbers because the community discovered they weren't working properly). If you're one of those people that want hard numbers before you buy something, than feel free to not buy it. You're talking about magics, so you don't really need to buy it, just hope someone else buys it for you and puts it on the raid.
    This part is the only part of your article where I will like to say that I dont agree. Transparency is simply better. My favourite example benchmark Blizzard realized that, and started putting figures in. Then, people can spend less time to calculate (how does Perception work? Years later, this question is still unanswered. See the point?) ...

    ... and spend more time playing the game. Again, the point made is that people prefer to buy something they know, rather than the other way round.

    So many examples over the years. I just mentioned about Frenzy too. I didnt bother to spend money/effort on all these because I didnt know then.

    The only positive aspect is what though - for magic, we can just wait for "someone else buys it for you and puts it on the raid." But, again, wont it be better for 5PG, if more people buy the magic they painstakingly designed?

    Man, I think I spent close to an hour on this reply. Really need to cut down my time on this. Cheers to all.
    Currently trying to share awareness on this - I realized that I dont really need anymore Premium Generals, esp with the Lockbox Premium nonsense~! And -1 to the AP Zone, AND Shop~! And the World Server~! And the 2.5T WR~!
    - Started around Xmas Eve '2010. Lena told me so. And, all the best to her, and Cleo. Never expect myself to outstay them here ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cylian View Post
    Actually I am comparing PC magic to PC magic, from the viewpoint of a mainly free player (like I always do).

    Firstly, I compared Shadowstep with Stanza, indeed. But I am comparing them as general PC magic first. Hence the 5% non-demon base for Shadowstep used, vs ~12% for Stanza (because, again, I repeat, the musical magic isnt that different to get even for a free player)
    You missed the point. You're comparing a non-general use magic to a general use magic. That's like saying the Furious Fishing set isn't well designed because it's worse than Dragon Rider Wrestling against non-aquatic raids. Sure that's true, but it's unfair to compare something designed specifically for one type of raid to something designed for all types of raids.

    [QUOTE]
    Secondly, I didnt ignore MarkRaven. I actually explained in point 3c that a casual paying player would not gamble for it. The implication here is twohold, one, the casual player likely wont know it's +10% for the Shadowstep/Mark sync, and two, it's a gamble. In point 4, I suggest that f this is made known clearly, then maybe people would be more willing to pay.
    [QUOTE]

    That point doesn't hold any water, since the damage bonus for Mark was put on the forums while the chest was still available. And your point that a casual paying player wouldn't gamble for it has really more to do with the fact that they have to gamble for it, than that it's a PC magic.

    OK, here ... the short explanation is that equipment set is personal (a PC player should always be stronger than a free player, I always like to stress), but magic affects the entire power-curve that the devs used to create the next Aqua raid, for the sake of continuing this discussion.

    The assumption from devs has to be that 36% Boil will be on the majority of the next new Aqua raids, so the new raid's health have to go up accordingly. Widening the power creep further. It's one of the last thing we want to do to the game. That's my feedback, along with some others all these years.
    And you're overlooking the fact that the Aquatic set also affects the power curve, in that it makes it harder for players without the set to deal damage to an Aquatic raid. In fact, Boil makes it easier for them to compete with people that have the Aquatic set. And considering that Boil appears on only about half the Aquatic raids (at least on Kong anyways), I'd say that you're overestimating the effect it has on power creep.

    2. Most free players will not have 6 hooks. I only have three, because I didnt know how good Frenzy turned out. (In fact I hit like 250bil, then stopped, because it's getting too boring. (Else 300bil, and another hook.) But that's another topic for another day. Already regretting the time spent on the forums here, sigh ...)

    Then, another assumption here - we are talking in very general and casual terms here. For example, Zoe and Immortal are 25% and 20%, but I would simply lump them together, because it's simply easier to think this way. By the way, they are the true free magic here. By the way, Possession and Exorcism isnt truly .... "free". Some have already noted and posted here - only whales seemed to have them now. There is a reason why, yah?
    First of all, I pointed out both extremes on FF. Which you seem to have overlooked. Not to mention the fact that even with only three hooks, FF is still better than Stanzas.

    Second, if you're considering Exorcism and Possession to not be "free" magics simply because of the amount of grinding needed to get them, you need to also consider the level 2500 and 5000 magics to not be free, because they require even more grinding.

    I ... actually can go on further to explain why I said what I said (hint - I mentioned my preference of just dumping my magic. My free, relatively casual style), and it is not that your points are wrong. Your points are correct, yes, but again, my point actually is - a free and casual player will ignore all the Feb Demon magic because a quick mental count would make them not want to buy/gamble and/or waste time/effort on them. You get what I mean now?
    By that same arguement, a casual free player would ignore all magic, since there are enough people out there with the good magics. Any player that wants to be able to put good magics on a raid wouldn't ignore these magics simply because of how difficult they are to get, any more than they would ignore legion bonuses or legendary hunt items or limited offer items.

    To me, there are PC-magic and free magic, and there are free magic, and there are "free" magic.
    So basically your concept of magic is three categories, magic you have to pay for, magic you can get without paying, and magic you can get without putting forth any effort, and the only magics you think the casual free player is interested in are those that don't take any effort to get.

    Anyway, to save more time - in short, I used Twilight to illustrate what is a better magic design - closer to the Zoe/Immortal benchmark, yet still providing a difference in ~7% for free vs PC players. Basically a true win-win-win design.

    The recent 30+% magics are going to pull the power-creep further, that is what I am saying. The effects would be felt by the newer and weaker players in future. The game design has to be real careful about this, because we are losing players, and not getting new players for reasons like this.
    What I'm seeing here is that your idea of PC magics is that they should not only be powerful (at least equivalent to the level 2500 magic) and that they shouldn't overly benefit the people that pay for them. Instead they should be paying for magic that primarily benefits every one else in the game. You're also overlooking the fact that RotT is only close in pay vs free amounts currently. It is one of the few "premium" type magics in the game. It will continue to grow in power as the game grows, unlike most other PC magics.

    This part is the only part of your article where I will like to say that I dont agree. Transparency is simply better. My favourite example benchmark Blizzard realized that, and started putting figures in. Then, people can spend less time to calculate (how does Perception work? Years later, this question is still unanswered. See the point?) ...

    ... and spend more time playing the game. Again, the point made is that people prefer to buy something they know, rather than the other way round.
    Considering how quickly the stats on gear and magic do get posted, I don't see your point. Players aren't going to spend any less time "calculating" if they do post the stats. You're also comparing games you have to pay for just to play to a game you don't have to pay for to enjoy all the content.

    If you go out and look at a game to buy, do you choose to not buy it because it doesn't say on the box what every item in the game does? Of course not. You buy it because the description on the box tells you what it's like in general.

    You're also comparing games where people other than the game designer publish stats on in-game items. Take a look at the resources that give stats on Blizzard's games. Take a look at who wrote them and published them. It isn't the game designers. Same thing here.

    Yes, transparency is good. But it's not required for someone to enjoy or even to play the game.

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